Episode Transcript
Welcome back to Spill the Tea HSV with Lauren and Bree. And today we have a special guest. We have Aaron Ryan, who's actually my attorney.
[00:00:36] Aaron: Hello.
[00:00:36] Lauren: For all the wonderful things I went.
[00:00:38] Aaron: Through with Dick, that's a fair description, I guess.
[00:00:40] Lauren: Tell us a little bit about your firm and then about you.
[00:00:44] Aaron: Sure. So I'm originally from South Carolina. I went to law school at Cumberland School of Law in Birmingham back in 0407. Have been in the Huntsville, Madison area since then. I have a firm downtown. We are Ryan, and my law partner is Taylor Rouse. I do about 80, 90% of my work is in the divorce, child custody, adoption type matters. My partner does personal injury and business litigation.
[00:01:09] Lauren: Nice. Yeah. You were recommended to me by the person that did my will. And so I. I called you, and I was like, hey, I need help.
[00:01:19] Aaron: That's how a lot of times it begins.
[00:01:20] Lauren: So I think one of the things we want to talk about today would be what do people, not just women. Cause it's. Everybody needs an attorney at some point, but what does everybody need to do to protect themselves when going through a divorce, like in my case, with a bunch of infidelity? What is good to Breeng to the table to be able to use to, you know, get what you want?
Help your case. That sounds better. Yeah. To help your case.
[00:01:44] Aaron: So I think a lot of. Maybe the first big thing to think about is doing the work on the front end. And by that, I mean when you're dating somebody. One of the things that I encourage people to do is to develop a healthy communication pattern while you're dating. Oftentimes we have love goggles on and we excuse things or we don't think to ask certain questions because everything feels great right now. So before getting into even an unmarried, committed relationship, I think there's got to be a good foundation of communication up front.
There needs to be a free flow of information. And so I met with someone just the other day, and they said, what's my first step? What do I need to do?
After the divorce had been filed, and I told her, gather information.
Information is key, whether it's good information or bad information.
Without information, you can't tell your story.
[00:02:28] Lauren: Right. And like, for me, when it all first happened with Dick, his first response was to run and get his phone off my account. And now we know why. Because when I filed with you, we thought it was only one woman he had an affair with. Turns out it was like 20 more. But now that now we know why. So when you say gather information, have Access to information. Like, do they need to go through these phones and try to gather stuff?
[00:02:52] Aaron: Yeah. So at any time during the marriage, if you feel like the protection of information is one sided. Right. If you have a partner who insists on handling all the finances, for example, or if it's a problem sharing their cell phone or hey, you can't have my password to my email address. To me those are red flags.
[00:03:11] Lauren: Yeah. Yes, absolutely.
[00:03:13] Bree: So what are some of the things that you can use in court, like screenshots of text messages, what can you use and what's not allowed?
[00:03:21] Aaron: So we use live social media posts. It's remarkable how many people will spill their lives and the secrets of their lives on an Instagram reel, on a Facebook post, or oftentimes really in the comments to other people's posts. And although, although they may not say the offender's names, it's clear and obvious who they're referring to or talking about.
So I would say social media, be careful with your own use of social media. Text messages and screenshots of text messages can be admissible, but they need to be sort of a complete series.
Text messages can be sometimes frustrating to judges because in one sort of link of our message, we may be arguing about a question of infidelity. And then we go to the next. If you scroll up, you're talking about the grocery list and then back to the argument. Sometimes those are difficult to follow and it can become voluminous. But text messages can be used.
[00:04:09] Lauren: What about for like Instagram? Instagram dms? Is that something that can be like subpoenaed and stuff? Because dick followed like 800 basically half naked women on Instagram and I guarantee you there were DMS in there.
[00:04:23] Aaron: So I've not ever subpoenaed DMs, but what I'll have someone do if they can get access to it is they'll screenshot all the messages. A lot of times now if, depending on how your cloud is set up, you know, you may have your phone, if you have an iPad, that device may also give you access to the Facebook messages or Instagram messages, whatever it may be. And so I have cases right now where that's the case and the other person who's cheating doesn't know that my client has access. And so this individual goes through and screenshots and just tracks all of it.
[00:04:50] Lauren: So staying calm is one thing that you would recommend and gather that information. Don't just let them know that you know right away. So you can get all the information you need.
[00:04:57] Aaron: Yeah. And so in your case, the one where there were no children involved, you know, divorce is really strictly a business transaction. And so I tell folks that's. That's the mentality you have to have when you know. When you know the divorce is inevitable, whether it's been filed or it's going to be filed. You have to go into a protective mode of gathering information to be able to negotiate, or if you have to, in the case of a trial, present the best case you can to get the best result from a property division of financial aspect that you can do. And you can't do that without information.
[00:05:25] Lauren: Yeah, it's hard to stay calm.
[00:05:27] Aaron: Yeah, it is. I mean, and that's the challenge, right, Is that a lot of times you want to be in the mode of gathering information, but our emotions overtake us, and it gets hard to focus on trying to be logical and regimented about those steps to take. Whenever we see that person, we know they may be cheating. And as. As was your case, it's hard to keep that of balance and stay calm.
[00:05:47] Lauren: I was very proud of myself for staying calm when I caught him at the movie theater with her, which.
[00:05:50] Aaron: Yeah, I was, too, by the way.
[00:05:52] Lauren: Thank you. Thank you. I was like, I need this for court, so I'm gonna stay calm. Which, you know, it's funny now, because now her and I are friends. But recording him like that was one of the reasons I did, because I knew he would just lie, because he lied about everything else and say that it wasn't true.
And I honestly think that, you know, part of it with him wanting to have to settle the divorce with me was he didn't want me to find out about the others because at the time when we settled, I didn't know.
[00:06:17] Aaron: Right. But. So I'm gonna tag on. Something you said, though, you talk about recording. I think it's important for folks, at least in Alabama, to understand that sort of the rules of an admissible recording in Alabama is that if someone. If there's a recording, at least one of the people have to be consenting to the recording. So if I'm in a room with someone, I can have my phone on and record. For example, Bree and I talking, I can record that and not disclose that to her. But because I'm the one who's recording it, I'm consenting to it. What I cannot do is leave my phone in a room with Bree and, say, another individual and then leave and allow that recording to continue and then come back. That would be inadmissible. And there's arguably it's illegal and could be civil penalties and things like that.
[00:06:56] Lauren: Oh, that's interesting. So, but because I was doing the recording, it was admissible, correct?
[00:07:00] Aaron: You were, huh?
[00:07:03] Bree: Does that also apply to phone calls that are being recorded?
[00:07:05] Aaron: Yes.
[00:07:06] Lauren: So same thing. Like, if I'm recording a phone call because I'm consenting to it, it's okay.
[00:07:10] Aaron: Yeah. So, for example, I had a client in the past year or so, he called his wife having an affair. And what he would do is he would set his phone under the couch and record her conversations with the other gentleman, wherever he was. And he brought this to me, and he brought it to me after having seen another attorney. He said, the other attorney said that's not admissible. Is that true? And I said, yeah, it's also probably illegal. So, you know, you've gone through all this effort, and not just time expense, but emotional expense to gather this information.
To then not have it be useful to you would be sort of another, you know, kick in the rear end. Right.
[00:07:42] Lauren: That made me think about something else. What about, like, cameras? Like house cameras? Right. So, like, I have a bunch on the outside of my house and some on the inside of my house as well. What if it's your house? Like, in that case, could that husband have put up cameras because it's his house? But what if the wife didn't know about it, but it's for the house?
[00:07:59] Aaron: So you're talking about hidden cameras versus like a ring doorbell camera?
[00:08:02] Lauren: Yeah, Yeah, I guess. Or just like.
Like a camera just like mounted. Yeah, like a security camera mounted. Like she could see it, but maybe she hasn't noticed it yet type thing.
[00:08:11] Aaron: So I haven't really had that issue yet, to be honest with you. Most of the cameras that I've come in involved with have been. I've had a private investigator videoing someone, or even a ring doorbell. But if it's a hidden camera, I think the same rules probably apply that if the person who's there being recorded doesn't know, then that's a problem.
[00:08:29] Lauren: So nanny cams are illegal then technically, like, you see all those TV shows where you see nanny cams, like, hidden, and people are, like, watching people, like, is that illegal?
[00:08:36] Aaron: So illegal or inadmissible? Maybe two different things. Right. I wouldn't want to be in the. In the position of having to argue to a judge this hidden camera that my client had set up and he or she was not present when the recording was happening.
That's probably a losing argument.
[00:08:49] Lauren: Yeah. Okay, so Just be present if you're gonna record it.
[00:08:52] Aaron: It's also pretty creepy.
[00:08:54] Lauren: Yeah, that too. I mean, I've just always. You see it on TV and you're always like, that's weird. Weird. So being present is the number one thing you're consenting, you're recording. If you're recording a phone call, it's you consenting to record the phone call.
That's good information to know. It is.
[00:09:08] Aaron: You know, along the same lines of sort of good information. I tell folks you need to know each other's bank accounts and financial situations. And I'm gonna maybe draw a little line here with. If it's your first marriage, you're a young married couple, you don't really have anything, you should start that relationship knowing everything about each other, you know, or. Yeah, that's, that's a lifelong process, but there shouldn't be secrets from the get go, Right. You should have each other's passwords and stuff. I think, I think that this contributes to healthy marriage. But on the other hand, if it's a second marriage or third marriage and you're already financially established, there may be some aspects that, you know, they don't need to know. How to log into your 401k account, maybe. Right, right. But then we're talking about things like you should probably look at a prenup anyway before you get married.
[00:09:51] Lauren: Right? Right. And I, I think the passwords thing, I agree, that's healthy. There were a lot of red flags, as we learned, you know, through therapy and talking to you.
So many red flags ignored. But he had my passwords for everything. He knew everything, and I knew nothing.
[00:10:07] Aaron: Yeah, I mean, so it's weird, right, how that works because we want to share that information because we love that person and we want them to know that we trust them and then we sort of forget about that, maybe that reciprocal sharing. And so there are personality types and people who can take advantage of that. If you're a giver, if you're someone who is a service type person, it's easier to be taken advantage of because your natural tendency is to give and to sort of just wrap your arms around them and forgive and not even think about it. But it's important as you, well, learned, Breen, I think as you've probably learned a time or two to go in with eyes wide open.
Right?
[00:10:41] Lauren: Yeah. What, like, what else do you think is something that's important for everybody to know?
[00:10:47] Aaron: So if you are, in terms of leading up to a divorce, if you say, hey, I'm Going to get a divorce if there are no children involved. That makes it a little easier. It makes it easier from the judge's perspective as well, because they can, they know that basically I'm dealing with just a property division. I tell folks if you have children together and you have your property, your divorce case really consists of two cases. There's a property division aspect which includes everything from division of debt to division of a home, home equity, retirement accounts, bank accounts, even alimony. And then you have your second part which is a custody case. And oftentimes those are handled very, they can be handled in different ways. Right. Your property division is completely information driven and finding accounts, getting account numbers. You know, if you, if a letter comes in from the 401k group and it's not got your name on it, well, take a picture of the outside. That way when you go talk to your lawyer you can say hey, I that he or she has an account that's managed through fidelity. Whereas if you come to me and say well I know he's got a 401k, I don't know where it is, that doesn't really tell me much except I know we've now got to do more digging and ultimately that's going to cost you more money as we have to dedicate time now to try to find all this information. So one thing I've started to ask folks to do now is to go run your own credit report.
And then in the discovery process where we ask for the other side to produce documents, I've started to ask for those individuals to also provide credit report reports because when those credit reports are pulled, it shows every account that's attached to your name and to his or her name. Right? And so what I have had happen is that sometimes there's innocent enough mistake where we forget about the best buyer card we opened up to buy the TV five years ago. But then other folks, you know, you'll see, they'll open up a credit card in somebody else's name or they'll go finance or get a payday loan or something like that and attach the non offending party's name to it. And so that now gives us more information about where to look, how to gather more information to figure out what the true financial picture is.
[00:12:37] Lauren: That made me think of something because that's something I've been kind of worried about is so if you're with somebody who doesn't have a good financial situation, like he knows my social and like all that stuff. So like what if he was to go open something in my name. Like that's something that's. We could prosecute and sue for. Right?
[00:12:55] Aaron: Yeah. So. So then there's probably a criminal matter. Right.
A criminal matter that you could pursue through the police department or, you know, the investigator, whomever. And if you. It could be a civil matter as well. There could be a civil fraud case, but just probably going to be handled more through the criminal court system.
[00:13:10] Lauren: Okay.
[00:13:11] Bree: So I know in my case, my lovely second ex husband did not find this out until after we were getting divorced, that he had, like, hidden accounts. There's no way, like you said, unless you do extra digging to find those accounts.
[00:13:22] Aaron: Yeah. I mean, so that's where it gets. Can be frustrating if you've got someone who, you know, oftentimes what I have seen is that I'll have someone come to me and say, this came out of left field. Right. And then we start to maybe talk about, well, what sort of behaviors have you seen for the past six months, nine months, a year? And you can tell sometimes that the other person has been plotting this divorce because they've been moving money away. They've been, you know, a little more secret about things, and you just didn't think to pick it up because. Why am I thinking this up? My partner or my spouse is thinking about a divorce. And sometimes, unfortunately, there are people who. Who hide things. I had a divorce case several years ago where my client, I learned well after the fact, hit an entire farm for me and the other side.
[00:14:01] Lauren: Oh.
[00:14:02] Aaron: Yeah. And so I said, why did you say. He said, if I knew, if I told you about it, you would have to disclose it to the other side. And I don't want you to disclose to the other side.
Yeah. And so, I mean, that was frustrating to me.
[00:14:13] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:14:14] Aaron: But at the same time, I mean, it's. You know, it just goes to tell you that you just. You can't really trust anybody. Yeah.
[00:14:19] Lauren: Yeah. Well, that's it. You can't trust anything because that's. That's one of the things that I started realizing. I told you, I think he's hiding money because his checks didn't make sense anymore. So I was like, he's either not working overtime, which he wasn't. He also, that's the lie he used with Bree, but he told the woman he was seeing, oh, I have to work overtime, but he was trying to go on a date with Breee, which did not happen.
[00:14:43] Bree: Just to make that perfectly clear.
[00:14:45] Lauren: It did not happen. Didn't happen.
[00:14:47] Bree: Date married men.
[00:14:48] Lauren: Yeah.
But. Yeah, so, you know, there's just things like that.
Like, they just. They lie, and it's hard to find those things out. So, like hiring a private investigator. Probably.
[00:14:59] Aaron: Yeah, you can hire a private investigator. That can be. I guess it depends on your. Your budget. Right. For your divorce. But that's certainly an option, having someone who can, you know, gather some surveillance, who can maybe find out. I've got a case right now where the Pride investigator is tracking the other person this weekend to see who exactly she's staying with on the weekends. We suspect that she's cheating on him, and hopefully this weekend we'll get some information about that.
[00:15:22] Lauren: What happens when they can't find him? Because I know that, like, that was an issue we had because he wasn't staying where he said he was staying. So what do people.
What do you do in that case? You just try to hire somebody to literally wait and see where we can find him.
[00:15:34] Aaron: Somewhere public. I mean, you got to gather information however, you know, whenever you can. And some. If you can't get the information, then the judge or the court can't consider it. Right. The judge can only rule based upon the facts that are presented to him or her at that time. And sometimes, frustratingly, you just can't get that information.
[00:15:51] Lauren: Yeah, it's annoying when they try to, like, get, like, hide because they don't want to own up to the things that they've done. And I mean, I feel like it's probably like that with child support stuff, too. Like, people try to hide stuff all the time.
[00:16:02] Aaron: Oh, yeah.
[00:16:03] Lauren: What do. What do you do in cases where whether it's child support or another payment and people aren't paying, what do you do in those cases?
[00:16:11] Aaron: So I guess it depends on where in the process you are. So if the divorce is pending, there's an order in place that's going to require the spouses to pay certain bills as they were prior to the divorce. Being married, at least that town is in Madison County.
So if a divorce is pending and he is responsible for paying the mortgage and he stops paying it, then your recourse is to file what's called a motion for contempt or petition for contempt in the court and ask the judge to hold that person immediately responsible. The judge could sanction him or her through financially jail time, could be done in certain circumstances. All of that really happens.
[00:16:47] Lauren: But.
[00:16:47] Aaron: So that would be that recourse. Now, if it's after the divorce and that person, let's say they owe you $41,000 and they haven't been Paying on that as they're supposed to.
Depending on how your judgment is written, if you were given a judgment for that, then you can execute that judgment. That could be placing liens on real estate. I just had a client of mine who placed a lien on his ex wife's house in California, and when she sold it, he got a check for $64,000.
[00:17:13] Lauren: Okay, so we could put liens on like something like, I don't know, a motorcycle.
[00:17:17] Aaron: You probably could.
You could lean on a home. You may be able to garnish paychecks.
You could execute the judgment on bank accounts, things like that.
[00:17:25] Lauren: So when it comes to dividing property.
[00:17:27] Aaron: So when it comes to dividing property, the court's going to look at several factors.
Number one, when was a property acquired? Was it acquired? Was it a gift? DeBrees's grandmother give it to her before the marriage. Right. Or did Bree and her husband buy it during the marriage?
The key distinction is going to be what is considered marital property versus separate property. If I inherited something during the marriage and I never used it for the marriage, let's say I inherited an IRA from my father and I never touch it during the marriage, I never withdraw from it, I don't deposit into it, that's going to be, that's going to continue to be separate property at the time of the divorce. However, if I had that money and I used it arguably to maybe buy a lake house for us or to go on vacations or to pay off debts, then arguably my spouse would have an argument that that is now marital property. That should be subject to division. Right. But whenever it comes to property division, a lot of times we get hung up on dividing things in the house.
And I try to tell my clients, you know, pick those battles. Pick out what's really important to you. If you want the table just to get under his skin, that's an emotional issue. That's not a practical issue.
And so pick those things that really are most valuable to you.
I had a divorce once where we literally had a 15 page spreadsheet dividing up extension cords by the color of the extension cord.
[00:18:45] Lauren: Oh, wow. That's like taking it back to like the 90s when they did the Beanie Babies and they would like be in courts separating Beanie Babies.
[00:18:51] Aaron: My first ever divorce case was a Beanie Baby divorce. The this is a true story. The wife had spent over $30,000 on Beanie Babies. They had a room in the entire house dedicated to Beanie Babies.
[00:19:00] Lauren: They were going to make money one day.
[00:19:02] Aaron: Okay?
One day they were and my client husband said, I use several four letter words, I don't give a blank, blank, blank about the Beanie Babies. She can have them. I just want out.
And so he ended up, you know, walking away from the Beanie Babies, which were ultimately worthless.
[00:19:16] Lauren: Right.
[00:19:17] Aaron: But you know that, that was, he didn't want to fight that battle. Right.
[00:19:20] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:19:21] Aaron: Well, why are we going to do that? On the other hand, I've had divorces where you've had a really valuable collectibles. Anything from comic books to stamps to coins to artwork. And some of those things, depending on the value, are worth. I'm using air quotes, fighting over. So it's just, it just kind of depends. But I would say prioritize of the physical, the property. What is most important to you before you just say I'm going to fight about everything.
[00:19:42] Lauren: What if your spouse buys something before you're legally divorced?
Or like in my case with Dick, he originally signed paperwork, but we had to get it back. And then he didn't want to sign again.
And then I found like now I've learned that he bought a motorcycle before if anything was even signed, and then he bought a truck before anything was resigned with the new agreement.
So would those like things, had we, had I known about them, would I have been able to still use those things against him?
[00:20:22] Aaron: So under that circumstance, I would say that follows. That's really good example of Pickering battles. Right. So for example, if a truck, if you bought it with cash that would have otherwise been divisible between the two of you, then that may be worth the fight having. Right. I had a client, I've got a friend who pulled up in a $90,000 truck the other day, paid cash for it.
[00:20:39] Lauren: Oh, must be nice. I wish I had that kind of cash.
[00:20:41] Aaron: That was my fault. But so if that was, if that was a cash outlay, that was money acquired during their marriage, then probably a fight worth having. But if he goes to sign the debt, he's financed the whole thing. Not a fight you want to have, right? Yeah. Right. So that's where I'm saying you've got to really evaluate what that property is before you dedicate yourself to say, I'm going to fight it, I'm going to fight for that.
[00:21:00] Lauren: Yeah, but then those things would be tools to use later for a lien or something if they aren't paying you the what they're agreed to put.
[00:21:07] Aaron: Yeah. Or you could use it for leverage. Right. During the negotiations because technically you're not supposed to, at least in Madison County. If that standing order is in place, the standing order that the court enters in every divorce case, it's called a standing pendant, a light order. Pendante lights, Latin for pending final hearing. That order, it says essentially, you have to preserve the assets in the current condition they're in. You have to continue to pay household bills as they were being paid prior to the paying of the. Or the filing of the divorce. And you can't go acquire new assets of, you know, anything that's not reasonable. Right. If you have to have new cleaning supplies for the house, you got to get that. But cars, brand new TVs, things like that. So technically, if that divorce is pending and someone goes out and buys a new car, they're in violation of the standing pen and. Which could subject them to civil penalties or sanctions from the court for a contempt finding. You know, so I have a friend, and this is a true story, I have a friend who is a different state, but at the time of her marriage, signed a prenup. And in a. At least in Alabama, I'm sure it's probably similar. Most other states, you have to give a full financial disclosure. All right? You have to provide basically a personal financial statement. These are the accounts I have, These are the debts I have. This is my 401k. This is real estate. Yada, yada, yada. So they do this, they sign.
Married for several years. Things start to go sour. She's in the office one day and she sees his filing cabinet she's never been able to get into. So she goes there and starts messing around with it. Well, it's open.
And she starts kind of looking through the files and finds a bank account that had multiple millions of dollars in it that was never disclosed at the time she signed the prenup.
And so right now she is trying to figure out, what does that mean? I have told her, I said my argument would be, and what I'd talk to your lawyer about in your state is, is there a provision wherein fraud can undo a prenup such that maybe she can, you know, lay claim to some of that money? Now, it was funds that she admits he obtained prior to their marriage from selling a business. But he negotiated from a different stance, right? He knew information that he should have disclosed. He did not disclose. Didn't you know? If he withheld this information from you? You negotiate a resolution to your divorce based on incomplete or inaccurate information, there may be a mechanism by which you could allege that that fraud should undo the divorce agreement.
[00:23:26] Lauren: So if it undoes the divorce decree, but it doesn't undo the divorce.
[00:23:30] Aaron: Right. So but now there's probably certain statute of limitations that would apply. Right. Like you couldn't wait and do this five years after the fact. But if you, if you learn of it, then it may be worth pursuing.
[00:23:43] Bree: Let's say that you are married to someone and they need to work on themselves.
So you decide you're going to move out for a little while, handle your issues, and they Breeng their ex wife back into their home to see if she wants to be a mother again to their children, but nothing intimate happened. And then after several weeks they realize, you know what, this is not what I want. Let's work on our marriage. Would that be considered cheating?
[00:24:10] Aaron: So that's a complicated fact scenario. I feel like I'm back in law school.
You're welcome. Yeah. So what I would say is, is that it kind of depends. Right? So if the.
First of all, I think it's probably important for most folks to know that adultery doesn't carry the same weight. At least it doesn't seem like to have carried the same weight like it.
[00:24:27] Lauren: Used to, which is bull crap.
[00:24:29] Aaron: Well, I don't disagree. I think it's more prevalent now. And so maybe we've become desensitized to it on some level, but it seems, it seems like it doesn't carry the same weight that it used to. Now having said that, you know, I guess Bree, under your example, you know, if the spouse who left and moved back in with his, or I guess separated then brought his former spouse into his home, you know, I would, I would say, well, did you know about it? Right? Did you know? And I'm saying you generally not to you, Bree, but, but did you know that your spouse is Breenging his ex spouse in? Okay. And if he did and if he did know and you didn't take any steps to do anything about it, then I'm going to argue if I'm, if I'm him. Well, Judge, she knew, right. We'd only been married a very short time. She knew that there was a chance I was going to try to reconcile and she didn't do anything about it. But the bigger issue is on such a short term marriage, there's just not a lot there to divide anyway from a property perspective. So it's not going to carry as much weight. And I guess that's maybe, maybe an important thing to say is that the longer the marriage is, the greater the property accumulation, the more weight fault has in a divorce. So typically in property division, the courts are going to look at. They're going to apply a multifactorial test. Right. They're going to look at how long have the parties been married, how old are the parties, education levels of the parties, who's been working during the, during the marriage, the current incomes, past incomes, the future income prospects. All of that comes into play, including issues of fault. When it comes to property division, it seems like our judges sort of started a 50, 50 division. And that needle can move one way or the other depending upon the facts as a, as they come out. But rarely do you ever see a divorce case where someone just gets completely hammered all the way through because the court, and when I say court, I mean judges as well, but the court can't issue an award that is so one sided that it is abusive of their discretion. Otherwise the appellate court's gonna overturn it. Which is frustrating because if you're the innocent spouse, it feels like you've gotten, you've gotten stepped on by your spouse and then the court steps on you again. Right. But the, I guess the, the reality though is that in cases where you're talking about just property division, no custody issues, the vast majority of those cases settled because ultimately people decide and they realize, this is my money. Why do I want a judge who doesn't know me, who gets a snapshot into, you know, the hell I've been going through to make decisions about my financial future? And people realize it's just a lot better for me. Am I, am I soon to be ex spoused? I may not like at all to try to resolve this, to preserve our own estate. Right.
[00:27:00] Lauren: Well, and I think sometimes too, they, they don't want you to Breeng in their ladies into it, which is like 100. What I was gonna do, I was gonna spin all of them, which number one, that I'm not friends with, she's, she's like, if you ever need me, I'll be a character witness for you. And I'm like, yeah, right.
[00:27:19] Aaron: So a lot of times though, we'll issue subpoenas or we'll, we'll notify the other person that, hey, we have XYZ individual on our side as a leverage. Right. As a pressure point to try to, to force a negotiation, try to force a resolution. Solution.
[00:27:31] Lauren: Yeah. I do want to talk about child support some because I know that a lot of our listeners have kids.
So with child support, like what, like how to start it.
[00:27:43] Aaron: Sure.
[00:27:44] Lauren: All those things.
And then maybe like I can ask some scenarios.
[00:27:48] Aaron: Sure.
So I'll talk about maybe in two terms. Right. So if you're, if you're married, child support is going to be calculated during the divorce process.
If you're googling at Home, Google Rule 32, Alabama Rules of Judicial Administration. You can Google Alabama child support calculator, but calculators will come up that will provide you with the state determined child support amount. You've got to know the gross pre tax income of the individuals involved, how many children there are. If someone is purchasing health care insurance for the family, particularly for the children, you need to know that amount. If there's any work related child care, you want to know that. If your spouse or soon to be ex spouse has a prior alimony or child's propagation, you'll want to know that figure as well. But there's a formula, it's plug and play Alabama recently, within the past couple years, there's now a formula for someone who has sole physical custody as well as for joint physical custody. So it used to be that if there was a joint physical custody arrangement, you know, like a 50, 50 week on week off type arrangement, child support was left purely to the discretion of the court. And each judge has their own way of calculating it. And it was a crapshoot as to which judge you got assigned. Well, now there's a formula that says if you're awarded or if you agree to joint fiscal custody, it calculates what child support would be. Yeah. So it used to be some judges, if it was 50, 50 wouldn't do child support at all if your incomes were kind of in the same ballpark. But now there's a formula that is required to be used. It doesn't mean you can't negotiate something different. But there's a formula that now gives you through the default amount.
[00:29:20] Lauren: Okay, that's, that's good to note.
[00:29:22] Aaron: So, but if you're not married and you're filing a paternity case to establish child support, you may get a DHR caseworker assigned to it because they collect child support through the state, through the child support payments in Montgomery. They'll run the calculations for you when you get that process started.
[00:29:37] Lauren: What happens if I'm a woman, I was never married to him, but I did have a child with him. We know that it's his, but we never went to court. So there's not any, there's not any custody, there's not any payments being done. But now the kid is 12 years old and the mother decides, I want some payments for this.
[00:29:57] Aaron: Yeah. So that's not an uncommon situation. What we see happen with Some regularity is you'll have folks have a child together and for a while things are going well. Right. They have sort of a hand check agreement on visitation, on child support, and then inevitably something goes astray or awry.
But I would just say this, I'm gonna press pause and say this.
It's important to understand, though, that until or unless you have a court order, neither person is obligated to the other person for child support or for visitation, any of that kind of stuff. And so that's where it can be frustrating is if you are the recipient of the child support and you say, well, great, he's been giving me 400amonth, but this month I've had something come up, I need an extra 100 or 200. And he just says, no, you have no recourse. Right. By the same token, I'll see this a lot with dads who say, you know, now she's withholding my child from me because she wants more money. And I tell both folks the same thing, go to court and get an order. That way there's no more this guesswork and this sort of this dance we do to try to negotiate around a child. Also time, let's get a court order established so that we know when your visitation schedule is and we know what you are supposed to be paid for child support.
So back to your question, though. If that happens and there's now this fight over what to do, you need to go talk to a lawyer and get custody and paternity and support established.
[00:31:19] Lauren: Can it. Is back pay for child support a thing so, like, they have paid for 12 years and now.
[00:31:24] Aaron: No, you're not going to get the whole 12 years. But it's also, if, let's say though, that that situation is there, the individual who should have been paying is going to get credit or can arguably get credit for any money they paid for that care of that child.
So if they were buying shoes or if they paid for the braces, or if they pay, you know, whatever money they were giving, they can argue they should get credit for the person who's going to receive it. They're going to say, well, you know, they didn't pay this. That's where the fight happens. If you are someone who has to pay child support, never, ever, ever pay in court cash, always, always pay in such a way that there's a record of the transaction so that you get credit for every penny that you've paid.
[00:32:04] Lauren: Yeah. So first, let's say it's a deadbeat who lives off women and doesn't pay anything ever. And I mean, even went as far as to, I don't know, have an affair with his son's allergist.
So would that, would that mother have a recourse to be able to file and say like, you've never given any money at all to this child, and I used to let you see this child every other weekend, but now I've stopped letting you see this child because you refused to pay and now won't even claim the child as your own. When you're dating other women, you're saying you only have one kid.
[00:32:37] Aaron: Right. So then that mother, what she should do is go file to establish paternity custody and support.
[00:32:44] Lauren: Okay.
[00:32:44] Aaron: Now I'm going to take a left hand turn though, because I've had this happen many times. Is that what I, whenever I have someone who is an unmarried mother who comes in with this sort of scenario area and I always ask her, how much do you want him to be involved? Because the moment you file a child support action, the other party is going to use their now ability to establish custody and visitation sometimes as leverage. And that's sort of distasteful, but the child will get put in the middle of it and will become a negotiating tool. You know, like, like you said, Lauren, this mother's now going to withhold the child because you haven't paid child support. Well, that's not fair to the kid. If the kid has a good relationship with his father. But he may be, he may be a deadbeat. Right. He may be a terrible person to the mother, but that child may idolize that father.
[00:33:26] Lauren: My thing is, you can't. Like the denying of kids is insane to me that there's so many, I mean, women too, but usually I would say fathers more than women because mothers, it's a lot harder to deny.
[00:33:36] Aaron: Sure.
[00:33:38] Lauren: But you know, being able to get something, some kind of support after, because now they have a better job and they never had a good job before and now they actually be able to get that kind of support or in another case, getting more money. Because whenever they originally first filed almost 16 years ago, they didn't get enough money.
[00:34:00] Aaron: Yes.
[00:34:00] Lauren: And now they make more money.
[00:34:01] Aaron: Right. So a child support modification. Either party, the courthouse is always open is what we say. So either party, if they have a material change of their, of their income, if they lost a job, they got a big promotion. Generally the rule of thumb is, is if you run the calculation and the amount changes by more than 10%, modification is appropriate.
[00:34:19] Lauren: Okay, so 10, that's good to know.
[00:34:21] Aaron: Yeah. But so there that you've got to kind of have an idea of what the other person's earning.
[00:34:25] Lauren: Yeah. And one, thankfully there's some jobs out there that are public knowledge and record on what they make.
[00:34:31] Aaron: That's right, yeah. I mean, and that's how, I mean.
[00:34:33] Lauren: That'S how federal government is. That's how states are, that's how cities are. Any anybody who works for those situations, it's out there.
[00:34:39] Aaron: Yeah. And I think that to the extent that you can get that information, you ought to use it. Right. Information is power and it helps us make better decisions. So you should absolutely look into that.
[00:34:50] Lauren: Is there any recourse when it, when they have joint custody, but then they're like either A, don't want to see their kids or B, they like drop a kid off with like their parents instead of actually spending time with them. Just, you know, that situation.
[00:35:03] Aaron: Yeah. So in that sort of situation, there's already obviously a custody order in place. Then it could be that you would want to file a custody modification.
The court should enter an order that reflects what the custody schedule actually is. So, for example, we may, Bree and I may call our schedule joint, which implies 50. 50 or something close to 50. But if I'm only seeing my child every other weekend, that's not 50. 50. Bree should Breeng me back to court and say, judge, you need to modify this to reflect what it actually is. And in that scenario, she could also get a child support modification because our custody arrangement would presumably change. Right. Going from joint to her having sold physical custody.
[00:35:42] Lauren: Yeah. And then if there's like a pattern where it's every other weekend but then they end up not seeing their kid, but like one day every other weekend for two hours to go to like lunch or the end, then just completely bail on the kid altogether. That's something that can be like, the mother could go and get some divorce for that.
[00:35:58] Aaron: So a good, a good tip is that if you are divorced or you are getting divorced or you have a custody action pending or it's going to be pending, you know, again, information. So get a calendar. Right. Take notes as to when you have your child or your children, when you don't track all of that, because when you get to court and you can say, and you can definitively say, judge, I've been tracking this for six, eight, nine months. This is the time that I've had little Bobby or Susie or, you know, the kids. This is the time that he's had them. A judge can Rule based on information. If we go in there and say, well, judge, I think it's been this, or maybe it was that. That doesn't carry any weight.
[00:36:33] Lauren: Yeah. So actually, like, tracking and keeping track of everything is the main. The main recourse for our.
[00:36:38] Aaron: We all have calendars in our pockets. Right. It's easy to write it all down. Just jot it down.
[00:36:41] Lauren: Take.
[00:36:42] Aaron: Take two minutes a night and write it down.
[00:36:44] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:36:45] Aaron: I like the paper ones because I can make photocopies and you can. They're. They're. They're easier to make exhibits out of, I think. I can't with you too, but I'm technically limited, so I have it like a color coded.
[00:36:56] Bree: I appreciate the colors.
[00:36:57] Lauren: Thank you.
[00:36:58] Aaron: You know what, Bree? I like highlighters. See, I do, too.
[00:37:01] Lauren: But then she leaves it at work and she goes, hey, what do we have today?
[00:37:04] Aaron: I'm like, so what I was gonna say, though, is that if it's your first time. Time going through that and you really don't want the father to be involved, I would take the time to look at the numbers as best you can. For some people, it's worth it not to file a child support claim to be able to have the extra control of that over that child, particularly if you think that the other parent is not really going to be a parent. Because sometimes that instability, that emotional instability for the child harms them. It does. And it's not worth the 2 or 300 bucks a month you may get in the long run. Run.
[00:37:34] Lauren: Yeah. Which is sad.
[00:37:35] Aaron: Yeah. It gets. Child support. Calculations can be a little wonky whenever you get to someone who maybe owns their own business. A lot of times what we have to do is go through tax returns to try to sort of find out what the individual's income actually is. You may have your company quote, you know, pay for your car, pay for your cell phone, pay for all these other expenses that. But for you, having your own business would be income that you would then pay those things with.
So a lot of times you have to sort of dig through and pour over tax returns and to try to figure out what someone's true income actually is.
[00:38:04] Lauren: You know, from all this, what I'm hearing is never get married again.
[00:38:07] Aaron: Well, being. Being young and in love is fun. And if you find the right person, it's wonderful. Right. I've been married 20. This will be year 24. And my wife and I rarely argue about anything substantial. Right. But it's because we had very early on, like within the first couple weeks of Our marriage, we had a discussion where it said, hey, you know what? I would like to stop visiting your family every weekend.
And I would like. And then, you know, I would like for you not to call your mom or your dad every time there's an issue. Why don't you and I handle these things together?
[00:38:35] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:38:36] Aaron: And so very early on, we created these boundaries, but it came about because we communicated right. We didn't hold feelings and hard feelings against each other.
We recognized that there was an issue. This was literally two or three weeks in two months in our marriage. And said, hey, let's discuss this and talk about it. And that, I think, has set the tone for she and I having an open. We don't. We have the same bank account. She knows all the passwords. I know all the passwords. There's nothing.
[00:39:00] Lauren: No hidden phones.
[00:39:00] Aaron: No, there's nothing. And it makes life easier. Right. I couldn't imagine being in a situation like many of my clients, where you just had this anxiety as to what. What's the other person doing. But it's because it happens. Because we don't openly communicate. We don't share fully with each other. And it happens on both sides, Right. Oh, I don't know the passwords. So then those little secrets start to build and build. It comes easier to keep this next one, right. Oh, I'm not going to tell them where I was at lunch or I'm not going to tell her while I was late coming home.
[00:39:27] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:39:27] Bree: That's when gambling addictions arise. And hidden accounts, I think. I think that's when that happens.
[00:39:32] Lauren: Oh, is that when that happens? That's wild. Pretty sure it is.
[00:39:35] Aaron: Who knew it. It definitely balloons.
[00:39:38] Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. Or, you know, hidden.
Multiple affairs. It's wild. Also a lot of work.
And that is. That's what he used to say when I. Because I dig. I'm a communicator. I will. I mean, for better or worse, I'm gonna tell you how I feel. And I would say, are you having an affair? Straight up, ask. Oh, no, that's too much work. Like, I mean, who has time for that? Apparently he did while he was taking a dump for hours.
[00:40:02] Aaron: That's why.
[00:40:03] Lauren: You know what they call them now, right? They're not side chicks anymore.
[00:40:05] Aaron: What are they called?
[00:40:06] Lauren: Shit chicks.
[00:40:07] Aaron: Ah.
[00:40:07] Lauren: Because it's always while they're on the toilet.
[00:40:09] Aaron: Yeah, I have to keep that in the recesses of my.
[00:40:12] Lauren: Yeah, keep that. Keep that for your future clients. Be like, you want to hear something funny? That one made me giggle. I thought it Was funny.
[00:40:19] Aaron: Oftentimes we are. Whenever we find out someone particularly has been unfaithful to us or financially or romantically or in whatever other way, we tend to emotionally react. And we all have the world. We all have a microphone in our pocket, right? We can put it on social media. I just tell my clients, don't do that. The moment you do, you know the court. When you. When you want to. When you're going to have a divorce and you want to argue issues of fault, he did this or she did that.
If everybody comes in with mud on them, then your argument just gets diluted, right? The judge is going to. Because they have a thousand divorce cases that week. They're going to say, well, both of y' all were crazy and you both messed it up.
So. And you can mess it up by going on social media and just projecting everything out, right? Or by. By doing something vindictive because it makes you feel better. But the. The problem is when you're in front of a judge, a judge sees all those small acts and says, well, y' all were both wrong. So if you. If you have a divorce where you think you can prove a fault issue against the other person, infidelity or some sort of neglect or abuse, you have to really toe the line because you want to go into the courthouse on a white horse or you want to be able to negotiate without the other person being able to apply leverage against you through some bad act or acts that you've done. One thing I'll say, sort of as if you think about, how can I have my divorce be successful from an emotional perspective, is that I try to encourage my clients. If there are ways to start to develop some emotional independence during the divorce process, start taking this. Go to a counselor, go to a group therapy, have a support group, right? Your attorney is not your counselor. As much as I think I may give some really good personal advice, that's not what you're paying me for, right?
But if you can start to grieve the ending of that relationship, because your divorce is not going to be done in a month, right? If you're in Limestone County.
I had one. I tried two weeks ago. It took us nearly two years to get there. There, right? And it was just a property division. And we got an hour into the trial, and the judge stopped us and said, lawyers, come to my office, please. And he calls us back to his office. He said, I've heard enough in the first 45 minutes. Please go to the jury room and settle this case. Because I don't understand what we're fighting about. We had two clients, though, who needed to be heard for a Breeef period to sort of air their grievances and then we could get it settled. But I say it to say so in Madison county, the quickest I've had a divorce case set and tried six months, and that's a quick one. Most of your divorces in Madison county are going to be eight to 12 months before you get a trial.
A lot of our judges require you go to mediation first to try to resolve it because they have. They're overwhelmed with divorces and everything else they have to do. So they don't have a lot of time.
And so you're going to have time to start to process emotionally the divorce you're going through. Do that right, take advantage of tools that you have to try to grieve that so that when that divorce is over, you're now ready to move forward with a new life. A lot of people think that when the divorce signs that decree, there's some sort of a magic switch that happens. And now my life is different. It's not. It takes work to get there. So you may as well start working on it while that case is pending.
[00:43:16] Lauren: Can you talk about, like, involving kids in the situations?
[00:43:21] Aaron: Yeah. So everybody goes. Most people go into divorce telling themselves and telling their lawyers in the court that I'm not going to put my kids in the military of it. But inevitably what happens is kids get in the middle of it because they're used as bargaining chips. Right. 1. One person knows, for example, oftentimes it's men knows that if they can, you know, get the mother upset about the kids, that maybe she'll give a little more on the financials or something like that. Or the mother knows that the dad really wants to see the kids. And so. But maybe, oh, we've got this activity this weekend. You don't get them in those small ways. We lie to ourselves when we say we're not involving the kids because the kids care. The brunt of it. I've never had a divorce in the 18 years I've been doing this, where a child wants to be in the middle. They don't want to have to pick a side. Some of them do. As they get older it gets, they start to form their own opinions, but they don't want to pick a side. There was a judge who's now retired who used to give a speech at the end of every divorce when there were children. He would essentially say he would turn to the daddies and he would say, dad, your child or your children need to believe that their mother is Wonder Woman. You should never say anything that makes him believe anything other than she is Wonder Woman. And then he would turn to the mother and he would say, mom, your children need to believe that their daddy is Superman. You shouldn't say anything or act any way that makes him believe otherwise.
And I think that after I'd heard it a hundred times, you kind of smile about it. But the reality of it is it's true. Right? The kids are the innocent ones in this. I've never had a divorce where both parties were 100% innocent. We always have some level of fault. In every small argument or big argument we have, we all share some fault.
But the kids, they don't. But kids naturally want to protect both parents, and they always regularly ask themselves, what did I do to cause this? Right? And so if we. If in courts are sensitive to this, I told someone just the other day, the judge doesn't care about you or your husband. The judge is going to say, what about these children, mom and dad? What are y' all doing to protect these children? To set them up to be well adjusted, happy in the future? And so I would just encourage folks to. To be. Have a good, hard, long look in the mirror and say, what am I doing to really make sure my kids are not in the middle of this? You know, am I passing messages through them? Am I giving the child support to them to make them give it to mom? You know, those sorts of things we may not even think about really do have. Have an impact on kids. So I would just encourage folks to really do your best to shield your kids from it. It's okay that they learn what's going on. They're going to recognize mom and dad's lives are changing. But don't put them in the middle. Don't weaponize them. Don't use them to pass notes and secrets, and don't complain about your spouse to the. To the kids. They don't. They don't deserve that.
[00:45:47] Lauren: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And I will say, like, when I. I feel like once kids started getting older, you know, 16, like, start getting into their teenage years, like, they're. They're gonna learn.
[00:45:55] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:45:56] Lauren: Like, they. A lot of times do learn the truth. And because one parent's there for them, one's not, you know, whatever the case ends up being, they see how their one parent treats, you know, the new spouse or whoever they're Breenging into their home and stuff. So kids.
Kids are smart.
[00:46:12] Aaron: They Are.
[00:46:12] Lauren: But young kids are so impressionable. That's where the issue is. Like, when it. When they're really, really young, then that's. That's an issue. I think, like, once they're, like, if they're teenagers and stuff, they're gonna. They're gonna know.
[00:46:23] Aaron: They're gonna figure it out. They do. They start to figure it out. And I get asked this question at least once a week by someone who calls in, and the answer is no. The law does not allow it. The question is, at what age can a child pick which parent they want to live with?
The law does not allow that in Alabama.
[00:46:38] Lauren: Really.
[00:46:39] Aaron: Kids do not get to choose. Because, you know, I tell people this, if my daughter would eat pizza and ice cream every night if she could, that's fair. Right? So they don't get to choose where they want to live because the court presumes that both parents are going to act in the child's best interest.
And so kids don't get to choose. Now, what happens is, to your point, kids get older and they start to formulate their own opinions, but by the time they're that age, hopefully they've got a relationship with the parents that it's not a secret. If your daughter says, hey, mom, tonight I'm going to stay at dad's house because his. His house is closer to the ball field. Yeah, right. Hopefully you're late, you're in a situation with your ex where y' all can work together to accommodate a child's needs at that point.
But if there's a court order for custody or for a visitation schedule, the parent's job is to make that child available and not to prevent the visit from occurring. Sometimes. What happens if you have a child says, I don't want to go over tonight.
[00:47:27] Lauren: Right.
[00:47:27] Aaron: They're upset at mom or dad for some reason. Reason. Oftentimes we can look and get counselors involved to help try to reconcile that situation. Because children. Studies show that children are happier and better adjust if both parents are involved with raising them.
[00:47:39] Lauren: Okay. Because that's why I was going to ask. So if a kid's, you know, a teenager. Because in Alabama, it's until they're 19, which is crazy to me. But what, like, if they just don't want to go? Like.
[00:47:49] Aaron: Yeah, those are difficult situations. And. And the reality of it is, is there's not a right answer. And sometimes it depends on the judge you get. There's. I know there's one judge who, if the child goes to court and says, I just don't want to go anymore. His position is I'm not going to force him to go.
[00:48:02] Lauren: Right?
[00:48:02] Aaron: Right. Some judges will take a different time. They'll say, no, we're going to try to address and fix the situation because that child needs to be with the parent right now. One thing I would caution folks from doing is that it's easy to sort of be an echo chamber for a child's frustrations. Right. Mom, dad just didn't let me do this. I'm really upset. I know. It's so easy to be upset this at him. Right. That's something we hear a lot. Or if you have, you know, mom just fusses at me because I don't clean my room well, I don't fuss at you like that, do I, Son, those sorts of echo chamber type things only stand to create division for that child and it creates internal turmoil for that child. And then it's going to lead you to going back to court because now somebody's going to have a contempt claim or fighting about a modification.
[00:48:44] Bree: So how much does a divorce typically cost?
[00:48:47] Aaron: So it depends. Right. You'll hear, folks, folks will hear about an uncontested divorce or a contested divorce. And the difference is in an uncontested divorce, the parties have reached an agreement prior to filing the papers with the court. In a contested divorce, when it's filed, an agreement has not yet been reached. Okay.
Most folks around town or around this area will do an uncontested divorce. You may see billboards for $800 plus the filing fee.
Some of them will do on a retainer where we charge by the hour. It depends on sort of what level of negotiation we have to do. For example, if, if I have what I believe is going to be an uncontested divorce, but we have a business we have to divide or multiple real estate holdings, that's going to be more expensive probably than I've got two W2 employees who've been married five years and have a four year old. Right.
But so for, and I've done uncontested divorces for as little as probably about $1,500. And that includes the paying of the filing fee to the county and a contested divorce or in a divorce maybe where we don't have an agreement yet, but we're going to try to negotiate. Most attorneys will charge a retainer. A retainer is a deposit that is held in that lawyer's trust account and it is billed against by the hour.
So for I've charged. Most attorneys will charge anywhere a retainer anywhere between $2,500 to $7,500. And the expense of it is really a function of time at that point. But out of your retainer, you may have to pay fees for subpoenas, a mediator fee, or for depositions so that it's. That cost can go up pretty quickly. But I would. If you're going to get divorced, depending on the assets you have, if there's custody involved, it could be anywhere from 3,500, 5,000 to upwards of 20,000. It just kind of depends on how long and protracted it is, level of assets and things like that.
[00:50:30] Lauren: Yeah. Well, I will say, personally, I recommend you.
I had a great experience and, you know, I think nobody goes into, hopefully nobody goes into a marriage planning to get divorced, but I think all this information is very good information to have.
Definitely listen to the prenup part.
Everyone get you a prenup.
[00:50:53] Aaron: Yes.
[00:50:55] Lauren: But make sure it's done right.
[00:50:56] Aaron: That's right. Make sure it's done right.
[00:50:57] Lauren: Yep. Because, you know, I had a prenup and we never had to show finances for it. So it turns out we could have thrown ours out.
[00:51:03] Aaron: So, yeah. So. And so I guess if I can maybe sort of take a little turn here on this, a lot of times it's easy to say, oh, I can print these forms off of the Internet and do them. I would caution against that because those forms may not work for Alabama. Our judges may not accept them. And now you've wasted some time and frustration doing something that you thought was going to work and it wasn't. Or, and maybe even more importantly, you may be negotiating your divorce in a manner that is detrimental, detrimental to you because you don't understand the laws that apply to your situation. I think it's always worthwhile to even just go have a consult with the lawyer to get your bearings before you start to do that, just to make sure that you're protecting yourself. The other thing I would say is when you go and consult with a lawyer, interview that lawyer, make sure it's a good fit for you. Not everybody fits with my personality. I don't fit with everybody's personality. And so it's important to make sure that you have a lawyer, because that lawyer is going to be on your team for the next several months, maybe over a year of your life in an important place, part of your life. And so you want to make sure that that voice is a voice that you trust, that you listen to and that you feel like you can have confidence in.
[00:52:07] Lauren: So for prenups do all attorneys do them, or is it a particular. Like, can you do a prenup, for instance?
[00:52:12] Aaron: Yeah, I mean, I would think most attorneys who are. Who are focused on what we call matrimonial or family law would be skilled to handle.
[00:52:19] Lauren: Okay, so. So it's not a bad idea before getting married to go ahead and reach out to an attorney, talk to them, see if they're good fit, get a prenup done, and then God forbid, you end up having to use that attorney again to get the divorce done.
[00:52:30] Aaron: But. But I mean, particularly if you have. If you're sort of established financially yourself. Right. I mean, if both of y' all are coming into it.
[00:52:36] Lauren: Yeah. If you're 20 years old and you're out of college. Yeah, but I think, like, now, if you're getting married in your late 30s.
[00:52:41] Aaron: Or 40s, like, and you're established, you've got a good 401k, maybe you own your house or, you know.
[00:52:45] Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. You don't. You. It's not worth, you know, the risk at that point because the divorce rate is very high, as you see every day.
[00:52:52] Aaron: That's right, yeah.
[00:52:53] Lauren: Do we know what. Do you happen to know what the divorce rate is in Alabama?
[00:52:56] Aaron: Well, I've always been. Been told up. We have the highest divorce rate in the state, and we're up around 50, maybe a little more, I think.
[00:53:03] Lauren: See, that's interesting, because that's what our LPC said, that Huntsville is one of the highest rates for betrayal. And I asked her why, and she said because of the certain career fields that are common here.
[00:53:16] Aaron: I think that's right.
[00:53:17] Lauren: And how much people travel a lot in and out.
[00:53:20] Aaron: So I had a client who, gosh, this has probably been 10, 10, 12 years ago, told me that Huntsville is known in the government community for the.
For the sex trade here, is that people would often come here for the. The ability to. I think it's the access. The access to prostitution, things like that.
[00:53:40] Lauren: Oh, that's crazy. University draft. Yeah, that's.
[00:53:43] Aaron: Well, but he told me. He was like. He was like, oh, no, you'd be surprised. It was just like housewives out of their home. We'll be doing it. It was a big underground network.
[00:53:50] Lauren: Oh, man. Well, so. And that's sad. You know, what's funny is I love Huntsville, but I'm just like, well, marriage.
No, I know it's still fresh for me, and it wasn't that long ago, but. Dear Lord, no.
[00:54:01] Aaron: But look, if you find the right one, it's wonderful.
[00:54:04] Lauren: Well, sometimes you think you do, and then it's not wonderful.
[00:54:07] Aaron: That's true.
And then you get to meet someone like me.
[00:54:10] Lauren: That's true. And then I'd be like, hey, you were great at Torvy. Yay.
But thank you so much, Aaron, for coming.
[00:54:16] Aaron: Thanks for having me.
[00:54:17] Lauren: Definitely love to have you back in the future. Talk about other things that come up, especially, like, to any of our listeners. You know, reach out to us on social media, send some comments, let us know how you like the episode, and then also, if you have any questions, let us know so we can have them back on.
[00:54:30] Aaron: Perfect.
[00:54:31] Lauren: Awesome. Well, we'll see you n
