Episode Transcript
[00:00:29] Lauren: All right, welcome back to Spill the Tea HSV with Lauren and Bri. But Bri is out today with a family emergency, so today is just with Lauren, and I'm here with Teresa Williams, licensed professional counselor. So, Teresa, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.
[00:00:48] Theresa: Well, I am in private practice in Huntsville. I do individual and marriage and family counseling. I've been doing it for over 20 years, and my office is in Huntsville, and I do a lot of speaking and training on betrayal trauma for women, and I do intensives for women and also for couples.
[00:01:11] Lauren: That's awesome. Sounds like it's definitely something that's needed.
[00:01:15] Theresa: It is.
[00:01:16] Lauren: And I didn't realize there was an actual, like, that was, like, a focus of therapy anywhere.
[00:01:22] Theresa: Yeah, a lot of therapists understand trauma, but betrayal trauma is a whole other ball game. And we have a lot of trauma that comes in and out of our life. But betrayal trauma has a. Has a unique spin on it, and it's not just sexual. It could be financial, institutional friend betrayal. So it's of broad.
[00:01:45] Lauren: Yeah, and that makes sense because, I mean, there's like, for me personally and my story with Dick, I know that there was physical, emotional, and find a lot of financial betrayal. And that's like. Sadly, I'm to the point now where I feel like the financial is the worst part.
[00:02:01] Theresa: It can be. It could be the lingering part.
[00:02:04] Lauren: Right. And I think that's what it is is it's just lingering there. So we're going to do a series with you, talk about a bunch of different things. I. I know you have a disclosure to do, so I'll let you do that.
[00:02:12] Theresa: I do. So, being a licensed professional counselor, I have to say that this podcast and anything I say on here is not a substitute for therapy. This is a psychoeducational. If you do need mental health professional counseling or you're in crisis, please go to your local emergency room, dial 911, or contact a mental health professional.
[00:02:40] Lauren: So for today, what were we going to get into?
[00:02:42] Theresa: Well, I thought we would talk about the physical, mental, and spiritual impact of betrayal trauma. I think sometimes as women, we forget the big overarching impact that it has. And it's kind of like what I call the life quake that comes into our lives. And we think we're going crazy if we don't really understand the impact. And I like to say it's kind of like a snow globe. Right. They're just so peaceful, and everything's calm and perfect. Right. Until you shake it up. And then the world is turned upside down. And that really is how our life is when we experience betrayal trauma.
[00:03:23] Lauren: Yeah. Yes, that is exactly what it feels like.
I myself was in a snow globe and sometimes still feel like I'm in one because I guess it takes time. Like, we want it to be over so quick and. And I've even had some friends of mine tell me that I need to move on and get over it. And constantly talking about it isn't helping anything. Or this podcast. And I'm like, well, for me, it's a form of therapy, and I'm not gonna be over it that quickly. I mean, mine is still very fresh, so you can't expect me to just move on. But they're like, well, you're letting him control your life. And I just don't see it that way.
[00:04:02] Theresa: No, you're not, because it's like any other trauma. And when I said that you're. It's a l quake, your whole functioning brain wise, and I don't have enough time to get into that today. But your life is turned upside down, and if you think about that, there's no way that you can come back to normal. If we look at it as a life quake. Think about the earthquake in Thailand, right? That just happened. Well, it didn't happen one day and everybody go back to normal the next day. I mean, there's rubbish and there's repair and there's search and rescue. Well, that's how we are in all these different aspects of our. Our lives in betrayal, trauma. I mean, you know, it affects us physically and spiritually and emotionally, and you just don't get over it. It is a process and it takes time.
[00:04:52] Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Because. Thank you for validating how I felt whenever. Whenever I was told that. So do we want to start with emotional?
[00:05:02] Theresa: We can instead, how about let's start with the physical?
[00:05:05] Lauren: Okay, let's start physical.
[00:05:06] Theresa: So first off, I hear a lot of women say, I think I'm going crazy, right? What is wrong with me? I am. I'm crying all the time. I can't sleep. Some of the physical aspects is appetite changes. You know, you go from one extreme to the other. Either you don't want to eat right, or you're going to eat everything in sight because you're trying to mask the hurt and the pain. And so sleeping, ruminating over all of the thoughts. I mean, body aches. Oh, my gosh. You know, I've had women come to me as a referral from a physician because they can't find anything wrong. With them. And they've got all these symptoms. Headaches, you know, like I say, body aches. Just stuff out of the blue, and they think they're going crazy. And the physician's going, I can't. I've run all these tests, and I can't find anything. And then when you start digging down, the body keeps score. And so we've got all this pain and trauma. Well, it's showing up in the body.
[00:06:12] Lauren: Yeah, I. I mean, for me, I did the. I'm not eating right for months. I hardly ate anything. And so. Which impacted the fact that, like, I couldn't go to the gym. I didn't have energy at all to, like, get out of bed. But then laying in bed, all I could do is think and just drive myself crazy. You feel completely drained.
[00:06:32] Theresa: Right. And fatigue is a real big one. Like, you don't have any energy, and you do not know why. Like people say, just get up. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps. You can if you want to. And another thing that we see physical is also it weakens your immune system. And so we see women who are more susceptible to colds and flu, especially. We just came out of the winter. And so it really does affect the body.
[00:07:01] Lauren: Yeah. And I think a lot of people don't realize that. My favorite that I got told a lot was, well, you can just choose to be happy.
[00:07:09] Theresa: Yeah. If it were just that simple, you know, pull that magic wand out and just say, hey, you're good now. Yeah, it doesn't work like that. I wish.
[00:07:18] Lauren: Me too. Me too. So, obviously, it's not just me, and it's a bunch of women that you've worked with that have had these symptoms, too. So if you're going through something like this and. And you're having any of these symptoms, then, you know you're not going crazy. This is an actual effect from your betrayal that you went through.
[00:07:35] Theresa: Exactly. So, you know, I say, don't be alarmed. Definitely go see your physician, make sure there's no underlying health issues. Have a good physical. Take care of yourself. You know, that's one of the things that when we're going through stuff like this that we fail to do because we don't have any energy. Like, we don't want to even sometimes even talk to anybody. Right. We want to pull the covers over our head and hide. But really taking care of ourselves in this particular time is really crucial.
[00:08:07] Lauren: Yeah, that's definitely how I felt. I just. I didn't get out of bed for weeks. Like, I was just not functioning at all. It's crazy how different that time. Like it wasn't me.
[00:08:21] Theresa: Right.
[00:08:22] Lauren: Looking back, it's almost like an out of body experience because I was so.
It was so dark, such a dark time, and I was just not. I didn't do anything. My parents were worried and they like wouldn't leave my side because I would just break down and I would just start crying and then I would stop just long enough to do it again.
[00:08:42] Theresa: Yeah. And. And it's like, well, what's wrong with me? Why can't I stop crying? And that is part of the body's processing the grief. And it's normal. But we have people around us saying, okay, you've cried for four hours now today. Get up, do something different and stop the crying. Well, sometimes you can't, right?
[00:09:02] Lauren: Yeah. And I 100% feel that because I definitely couldn't and it's not helpful. So what should people say if their friends or family are seeing somebody go through this? What's a better response than pulled up by your bootstraps? Choose to be happy. Like, what can people do to support those people in their life that have gone through a big betrayal?
[00:09:23] Theresa: Well, first of all, be a friend. Don't be a foe. And what I mean by that, don't offer advice. First and foremost, don't come in and go, you know, when I went through my divorce or when my aunt Susie went through hers, or I heard somebody, or I've seen this on tv, the last thing that person needs is for unsolicited advice. They don't need the advice. What they need is somebody to come alongside them. Just listen, you know, offer the box of tissues. When I went through my betrayal, oh my gosh. I kept the tissue company in business because I didn't think the tears would ever stop. And they will. But what we need is that friend who says, I am so sorry. What can I do to help? What do you need? Do you need, you know, the dishes cleaned up? Can I bring you a meal? Or hey, can I just sit with you?
[00:10:17] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:10:17] Theresa: And be patient, you know, and the other thing that we want to do is we want to criticize the spouse. Don't do that, because that's not helpful either. You know, the person that is betrayed can talk and just let them say whatever they want to about the spouse or the person that betrayed them. But don't you jump on that bandwagon because you're there for them. And it may look like that calling the betrayer and sob is going to help. What really Doesn't.
[00:10:51] Lauren: That's a very interesting thought and good to know, because I do know the. What can I do for you? Like, I'm very big on that for people anyway. Or if they say, like, nothing, you know, I'll just send text or calls, like, if I'm not in the same area and just like, hey, I'm here. I love you. I'm thinking about you. Or drive by their house and drop something off for them.
[00:11:12] Theresa: Absolutely.
[00:11:13] Lauren: I had a friend do that. She drove over and dropped off flowers and, like, a Starbucks drink for me. And, you know, that meant the world. It was. It was very small, but it meant the world.
[00:11:23] Theresa: Well. And the other thing a lot of people do is because they don't know what to say or what to do. Right. And so they might initially, like, drop that drink off to you with the flowers, but then two or three weeks down the road, they think you should be fine. Or a month down the road, and so they forget about you. And don't do that, because this is a process. It does not end overnight. And be there for them. Drop a card. Just listen.
[00:11:52] Lauren: Yeah. And don't tell them to get over it.
[00:11:54] Theresa: Yes. Yes.
[00:11:56] Lauren: Yeah. I think that's a big one, like, for me is the amount of people that have told me to either just move on, get over it, stop letting them control my life, or you choose to be happy. That one drives me nuts.
[00:12:07] Theresa: Well, what we fail. Exactly what we fail to realize that this is a grief process. Somebody important dies in our life. Right. A loved one. We just don't go, okay, they died today. We're going to cry. They have the funeral the next day, and then we're good to go. We're happy. Right. It doesn't work like that. And even though you got hurt and you were betrayed, this is a grief process. You lost something. Most of the time you were blindsided. You had no idea.
[00:12:35] Lauren: And I feel like, too, not only do you lose something, but it's like when someone dies, there's a finality to it.
[00:12:43] Theresa: Exactly.
[00:12:44] Lauren: And he's still out there.
[00:12:46] Theresa: Yep.
[00:12:48] Lauren: Doing things to just, like, poke me. And he's gonna do the same thing to some other poor woman. And part of me is like, she needs to be warned.
Like, are you sure? Like, this is who he is? Because I had no idea.
[00:13:01] Theresa: Right.
[00:13:02] Lauren: But a lot of the things I've learned now, that were red flags, I didn't realize they were red flags at the time. And there may be other people who also don't realize that. Like, if they're just Constantly bashing their ex and only bashing their ex and not taking any responsibility at all.
[00:13:15] Theresa: Well, yeah, and your listeners probably won't like me right now, but let's be really truthful here. While, you know, in my own case, and I'll use myself, but this applies across the board. While I did not have the affair or cause of betrayal, I still had fault in the marriage.
And so you have to look at that. Now let me carve out and say, I did not cause him to have the affair. I did nothing.
[00:13:46] Lauren: Yeah, let's talk about that.
[00:13:47] Theresa: Yeah. So that's it. That's another misnomer that people don't realize is, well, what did you do? You should. You had to have done something for him to stray. Well, no. So let me make sure your listeners understand. When somebody chooses to go outside of the marriage and have an affair, it has nothing to do with who they're married to. It doesn't mean that they weren't a good enough wife. They didn't give enough sex. It.
[00:14:14] Lauren: They weren't pretty enough.
[00:14:15] Theresa: They weren't pretty enough, they weren't skinny enough, they didn't cook, they didn't clean, whatever. Fill in that blank. Has nothing to do with the spouse. It's a hundred percent on the person who had the affair.
[00:14:28] Lauren: Why did they do it?
[00:14:29] Theresa: Well, it's just because human nature. They want what they want, when they want it and how they want it, and they've chosen to do it.
[00:14:37] Lauren: Yeah. So they're just, it's a selfish situation where they just choose to step outside of their marriage because they don't care enough about the person that they married.
[00:14:46] Theresa: Well, I don't want to ensure it's even about. Yes, that's a level of aspect, but it's more about them. Again, they could have a perfect wife and there is no such thing. But it has, has nothing to do with their spouse.
[00:15:01] Lauren: So it's just 100%. This is me and this is what I want.
[00:15:04] Theresa: Yep.
[00:15:05] Lauren: And I don't care what damage it's going to do to anybody else.
[00:15:08] Theresa: Exactly.
[00:15:09] Lauren: Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's hard because immediately you think I was too out of shape.
[00:15:15] Theresa: Right.
[00:15:16] Lauren: I, I must have pushed him away. You blame yourself. Like, that's the first response, which is sad because I feel like, like, do men do the same thing or is it women that blame themselves the most? Because I feel like we're like innately trained to be. Like, I blame myself.
[00:15:29] Theresa: Well, I think it's universal, but I think women carry a lot more of the shame and guilt. Because like you said, here's the first thing. Why did I not see that? What's wrong with me that I did not see that? I'm so stupid. Like, and you know, you'll get caring, wonderful people. And I'm being sarcastic here. We'll say, well, you should have seen it. You should have seen the signs. We saw it. But here's the thing. We blame ourselves. Well, if I would have just dressed like that, or here's the big one. If I would have just treated him better or given him more sex or loved his parents better or took care of the kids or cooked, you know, I didn't. I. I didn't cook enough right. Then this wouldn't have happened. And again, has nothing to do with what we did or didn't do.
[00:16:18] Lauren: Yeah, it would have still happened because they still happen. Chose for that to happen. Yeah. I think for me, a lot of it was, well, if I would have just let him stay out on the motorcycle because he, he would want to stay out past 10pm And I'm like, it's a work night. I would like to go to bed with my husband. And he would be like, I don't like you controlling me and telling me what time to be home. Like, I' child. And I mean, turns out he was at his girlfriend's house. But it's those things where you're like, so maybe that was it. I pushed him away because I didn't want him to stay out late and he felt like I was treating him like a child. So then you want to blame yourself or, that girl was skinnier than me, so I need to lose a ton of weight because she has something I don't have. Or they bonded over metal music. So now I need to listen to metal. I hate metal. I'm not going to listen to metal.
[00:17:02] Theresa: Well, what I call we, we should all over ourselves.
[00:17:05] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:17:06] Theresa: You know, I should have done this. I shouldn't have done that. And if I would have that, that.
Yeah.
[00:17:11] Lauren: And it's the best way to combat that. Seeping. Seeking help, I feel like, would probably be the best to talk to a professional about those things.
[00:17:18] Theresa: Right. Because, you know, we, we want to take the responsibility because they gaslight us, you know, they make us doubt our own thoughts and feelings and question our own motives. And so by the time this all comes out, we're going, it's me. It's definitely me. He's told me 5 million zillion times, right, that it's me. And we do need help. We need somebody that will come alongside us and help us see the truth and understand what's going on with us.
[00:17:47] Lauren: Yeah. That's one of the things we say on here a lot, is that everybody would benefit from therapy, men and women.
[00:17:53] Theresa: Yes.
[00:17:54] Lauren: I love going to therapy, and I just can't imagine not going. So I'm always like, yes, therapy is the way. Can you define gaslighting? Because I feel like a lot of people don't actually know what it is.
[00:18:04] Theresa: Well, gaslighting is where another person invalidates your feelings. In other words, it tells you that what you're thinking or feeling is not true, that you have no right to feel that way.
So if you tell me it's snowing outside, and of course it's 75 degrees probably right now, and I'm going, no, it's not. It's just you. I mean, it's just your thinking. What's. What's wrong with you that you would even think that? So silly example. But it's somebody making us feel like what we think and believe is not true.
[00:18:40] Lauren: So an example from my situation. Dick would be on his phone.
[00:18:43] Theresa: Yeah.
[00:18:43] Lauren: And constantly on his phone. And I would say, like, jokingly, it started. Always started as a joke, like, oh, you're texting your girlfriend. Yeah, silly me.
But then, like, seriously, sometimes I'd be like, no, really, who are you texting? Oh, I'm not texting. But I would see his. I would see him texting and he's like, I'm just. I'm just looking. I'm just shopping. I'm like, but your fingers are moving quicker than that. And at a time, he wore glasses and I could see reflections.
[00:19:06] Theresa: Exactly.
[00:19:07] Lauren: And he just. Still.
[00:19:08] Theresa: So what he just did is make you question what you knew was truth.
[00:19:13] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:19:14] Theresa: And that's what it's all about. It's making us doubt what we think or feel.
[00:19:19] Lauren: Yeah. And what about when he would never look me in the eye? When I would try to call him out on things, he would never let me in the eye. He would always look down and he would just say that it's because I was too confrontational or whatever the case was. But how do you not look somebody in the eye when you're trying to have a conversation? Because he even did that right before we split is. He wouldn't let me in. I was like, if you're going to try to end a marriage, the least you can do is look me in the eye. And he just. Still, he wouldn't do it. And that would drive me crazy. Too. And I would tell him that. And then he would also get mad at me for pointing that out and tell me that I'm just controlling. Whatever his big thing. He would always tell me I was controlling. That was the big thing.
[00:19:57] Theresa: Oh, of course you are.
[00:19:58] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:19:58] Theresa: You're calling him out.
[00:19:59] Lauren: Yes.
[00:20:00] Theresa: Yeah.
[00:20:00] Lauren: That's his thing with everybody now. Oh, well, she's just controlling. If I would snap at him and I would be mean and, like, say mean things like, was that good of me to do? No. Do I own that? Absolutely. Can I be abrasive? 100%. But I also know this about myself, and I'll come back and apologize, and I will always own that for myself. But he would use it against me.
[00:20:23] Theresa: Yeah.
[00:20:24] Lauren: And he'd be like, see? You're crazy.
[00:20:25] Theresa: Right. But that's a classic. You're crazy.
[00:20:28] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:20:30] Theresa: And that's what I was really alluding to. I really appreciate that you owned your own behavior in the relationship. And so there's no perfect person. There's no perfect relationship. So when I said earlier about taking responsibility for your part in the relationship, and I say that because you. You want to learn and grow. You want to look at your part in the relationship difficulties, not in responsibility for the affair. Those are two different things.
[00:21:02] Lauren: And I think people don't know how to separate that.
[00:21:04] Theresa: Exactly.
[00:21:05] Lauren: Because I think that that's a big. A big thing. It's. If I do have faults, which we all do, because nobody's perfect, then I must be at fault for.
[00:21:15] Theresa: Right.
[00:21:15] Lauren: The affair. And it's like, well, well, no, no. Like, I didn't do anything.
[00:21:21] Theresa: No.
[00:21:22] Lauren: Because people online will say that all the time. Like, well, you didn't give him enough sex. You didn't do this, you didn't do that. And why are we always blaming? And it's not that women don't do it too, because women, obviously they do. They betray and have affairs. But specifically, talking from the standpoint of the woman being the victim in the situation, why do people constantly gaslight us or say online, it's the woman's fault. They make it the woman's fault every time.
[00:21:48] Theresa: Are you talking about the betrayed wife?
[00:21:51] Lauren: Yes. Yeah, that's the betrayed wife's fault. You can look online when people talk about it, and it's always, well, you did something. Like, you must have done something. I'm like, why isn't the first response to be like, the husband is wrong?
[00:22:03] Theresa: Right.
[00:22:03] Lauren: It's always like, well, what did you do?
[00:22:05] Theresa: I think part of it is ignorance. I really do. I think that we are conditioned as a society to believe that as women that we have control over our spouses and we don't. And I think it's that we think if we do xyz, then a spouse is not going to stray. And let me clarify something with this one.
Anybody, anybody is capable of having an affair given the right set of circumstances, place, time, they are. So for somebody to step up and go, well, I would never have an affair, well, be careful about that one because that's not true. You, right now, today, you, you say you won't, but if you're not careful, you can go down that same path. So I think sometimes we come from a self righteous standpoint and I think also we come from it from ignorance that we don't know what to say.
[00:23:06] Lauren: And when we talk about that like that anybody could potentially have that happen. My thing would be like, don't put yourself in the situation to allow that to happen.
[00:23:16] Theresa: Right.
[00:23:17] Lauren: Like don't go to overnights with, you know, your female co workers. We talk about work wives and work husbands a lot in here because we've seen a lot of affairs obviously happen at work because you see those people constantly. But I'm not going to go out and get drunk with a bunch of random guys. There's lines that you just don't cross when you have respect for your spouse.
[00:23:39] Theresa: Well, and I think part of it too is that in marriage you set protective hedges around your, your marriage and you, we call them boundaries. And a lot of people do not understand boundaries. They think boundaries are punishment. And that's not what boundaries are. Boundaries are a place that says these are my values and this is the line and you will not cross this line. It has nothing to do with trying to control another person. It is about you, what you will tolerate, what you won't. And so I think sometimes in marriages we don't put healthy boundaries. Like I would not go out, have dinner with another male without my husband knowing exactly where I was and there would be other people around. And most of the time I don't even do that because that's just something that we have set as a husband and wife, that we will not do that because it sets up a situation that you don't want to put yourself in. Now when I say that, it doesn't mean that I think my spouse is going to cheat or I'm going to cheat. It's just that you don't do that. You don't put yourself in that situation.
[00:24:54] Lauren: Yeah. And for me it was always like a respect Thing.
[00:24:57] Theresa: Yeah.
[00:24:58] Lauren: You know, one of the things we would argue about a lot was he followed like all these half naked women on Instagram. And I would get mad because I was like, why do you want to look at this? And he would tell me I was insecure and that it shouldn't matter. And I was like, yeah, but this is, to me, disrespectful. And so I just don't want you to do it. And that was always the thing. You're insecure. And then the whole going out till 10 o'clock at night.
[00:25:21] Theresa: Yeah.
[00:25:21] Lauren: That you're putting rules on me. Like, no. Like, these are things that I just felt like were respectful in a marriage. And if you respect your spouse, don't you want to go to bed with them? I don't know. Or at least be home at a decent hour. I'm tired at 10 o'clock. I want to go to bed.
[00:25:36] Theresa: Well, and I would just say, and I won't go into this, maybe another episode, but there is so much porn addiction. And that, yes, you're absolutely right. You, your spouse should not be, you know, constantly looking at half naked women. That is disrespectful. But it also opens that door for a porn addiction. And I want to say this, and I'll just leave it there. I have couples that will come to me, or a wife will come to me and I'll ask about, does her husband look at porn? And she'll go, well, yeah, all men look at porn. That's just what they do. No, that's not okay. Porn addiction is real. Sexual addiction is real. And it destroys men and women.
[00:26:19] Lauren: Yeah. And part of me wonders if maybe that maybe was his situation. Like, I've never really paid attention. Like, I don't, I'm sure he might have watched porn. I don't, I didn't really pay attention to it.
I never saw him do it. But there's a high probability that he did. And that's one of the things that I was wondering because, like, he had an affair with so many people.
[00:26:39] Theresa: Yeah.
[00:26:39] Lauren: That part of me is like, was there an addiction there? Like, for him? Like, you know, or was it possible? Either that or he needed, like, the validation. Like there was something going on that he just felt like he had to have, I guess. But how do you feel about, as a therapist, sharing locations?
[00:26:55] Theresa: Well, I think it's a, a gray area. And I, and I will tell you both how I feel about it. I think you, for safety reasons, if you're doing it for that, you know, there's a reason you need to share it. That's a different story.
[00:27:09] Lauren: So I'll say, for me, I travel a lot, right? And I travel out of the country a lot. So I wanted him to know where I was. I mean, my mom has it now because I just want somebody to know where I am. And then for him, he rides. He rode motorcycles.
[00:27:20] Theresa: Exactly.
[00:27:20] Lauren: So for me, it was, I haven't heard from you for hours. The motorcycle's not moving.
[00:27:24] Theresa: Exactly.
[00:27:25] Lauren: I need to know where are you?
[00:27:26] Theresa: Right? And in those situations, yes. But what I find is when there's mistrust or control, then why do we want that location? Like, my husband is having dinner this evening with a colleague, right? We do not share locations. I just don't. Now, if, like, you say, if we travel, different story.
[00:27:46] Lauren: Right?
[00:27:46] Theresa: But why do I need that? I don't.
[00:27:49] Lauren: And so I'll say for me, I was out of the country in April of last year in Guatemala, and he was somewhere that I had never seen before, right? So I messaged him, and I said, hey, where are you? What are you doing? And he was like, oh, I'm just picking up bike parts, car parts, whatever it was with his buddy. And I was like, hmm, well, that's weird. And then I saw the same place again, right? And I was like, okay. So he was saying it was a friend, and I'm like, was it like now? Of course I don't know for sure, right? But now I'm like, his find my stopped working.
[00:28:24] Theresa: Ah.
[00:28:25] Lauren: Like, the next week. And, oh, I'm trying to fix it. I don't know why it won't fix. And so then I was like, I want to know where you are. Because at this point, red flag, like, sirens are going off, and I want to know where he is. There was nothing wrong with it, I guarantee you. He just was not adding me back because he was doing things he shouldn't have been doing.
[00:28:44] Theresa: Exactly. And so let's kind of take a little curve here, but in the same ballpark. So I don't think there's anything wrong with sharing your location. But if you're constantly checking where your spouse is, then there's a problem. Is there a problem that you think they're doing something, or is there a problem that you're trying to control? And this could be either way, but also transparency. My husband and I both know the code to both of our phones. Okay. Computers, laptops, iPads. And I can't remember his most of the time because I don't have a reason to look at it, then I have to think about what it is. But you ought to be able to at any point in time to be able to say, here, you want to look at my phone?
[00:29:35] Lauren: Yeah, let's talk about that. Because he would not.
[00:29:37] Theresa: Well, there's a reason.
[00:29:39] Lauren: Right. But he. He said that his son's mom would go through his phone all the time. And so. And it was a control thing.
[00:29:46] Theresa: It's a trigger.
[00:29:47] Lauren: And it was a trigger for him, and blah, blah, blah. That was his excuse.
[00:29:50] Theresa: Okay.
[00:29:51] Lauren: And so I was like, okay. But then, like, you know, like, if we'd be driving down the road or something, and I would get a text message, I would just be like, hey, go answer that. Like, he was in my phone.
[00:30:00] Theresa: Right.
[00:30:00] Lauren: All the time.
[00:30:01] Theresa: Yeah.
[00:30:02] Lauren: And then he told me what his passcode was once. And when all this stuff started happening, I was like, let me just see if this is his passcode. He rarely left his phone out of his sight.
[00:30:10] Theresa: Yeah.
[00:30:10] Lauren: There's a big red flag in his pocket. Always upside down.
[00:30:13] Theresa: Right.
[00:30:14] Lauren: Always on his person.
[00:30:16] Theresa: Yeah.
[00:30:17] Lauren: Even when he would go into the shower, he would take it into the shower with him.
[00:30:20] Theresa: Okay. Big red flag.
[00:30:21] Lauren: Or just into the bathroom. At least, like, a minimum, it was in there. But one time he forgot. And so I was. I tried. The passcode didn't work. So he didn't even give me the right passcode. But he. And I. And I said something to him about it because, again, I'm. I'm gonna call you out. Like, for better or for worse, I'm gonna call you out. And so I said something to him, and he was like, no, that's the passcode. You just did it wrong.
[00:30:43] Theresa: Yeah.
[00:30:43] Lauren: But then I was, okay, then let me see your phone. And I tried to take it, and he freaked out.
[00:30:47] Theresa: Right.
[00:30:48] Lauren: And it was a. Why are you trying to control. Again, he would say, I'm controlling. And so I think that's a situation where I want to make sure that women know that. Like, that doesn't make you controlling.
[00:30:59] Theresa: No, it doesn't. In fact, if you're in a relationship and you ought to trust. Let me just say trust is not automatic. It's earned. So you should be able to look at your spouse's first phone devices. Okay. And without harassment. Now, if. Again, if. If you really think that there's something going on, then you need to sit down and have a conversation. That. That's a whole other ballpark. To do it obsessively just because you, quote, think they're seeing somebody, deal with it, you know, Ask the questions. Do, do what you. Your due diligence that you need to do, but you ought to be able to see anything on your spouse's devices.
[00:31:45] Lauren: And if you have that conversation, because I did. And he lied to my face and said that he wasn't having affairs, but I couldn't get in his phone. He wasn't showing me any proof to say that he wasn't having affairs. But weird things happened, like a debit card, a new debit card. And I was like, what is this? Oh, I didn't sign up for that.
[00:32:03] Theresa: Right.
[00:32:03] Lauren: I'm like, well, you don't just get a debit card in the mail for cash app. And I was like, somebody steal your information? And he's like, just cut it up. There were things that were starting to happen. The GPS suddenly not working because he didn't like the fact that I called him out on being somewhere or asking where he was and then he was there again. And so I asked him again and he didn't like that because that's controlling. He didn't like me telling him to be home by 10 o'clock because that's controlling. He didn't like me questioning these random debit cards that kept showing up. There were definitely flags that were happening, but there was no way for me to know. So then I was constantly obsessing.
[00:32:37] Theresa: Right.
[00:32:38] Lauren: Because I couldn't get in his phone.
[00:32:40] Theresa: Right.
[00:32:40] Lauren: Because he wouldn't show me his phone. And so then like, how do you, as a. I ended up catching him on a date because he used our joint bank account.
[00:32:47] Theresa: Right.
[00:32:47] Lauren: So I, he eventually messed up. Yeah, but how do you tell your patients to handle it? Because you'll feel like you're going crazy exactly. When these red flags start popping up.
[00:32:56] Theresa: So let me tell you a little bit about my story and I'll answer it. So first of all, you start seeing red flags, and this is what I tell couples when I do marriage counseling, is that if you're going to have an affair, it's not a matter of if you're going to get caught, it's a matter of when. And it doesn't matter. And so when you talk about going crazy and you're. And you know, again, they're gaslighting you, saying, oh, you're just controlling or you, you don't have a right to that or, or you shouldn't ask that. Why are you doing that? You don't trust me, right?
[00:33:29] Lauren: Yes.
[00:33:29] Theresa: That's the big one. You don't trust me. What's wrong with you? I will Tell you a little bit of backstory with me and how I handle it and what advice do I give to my patients. I was married, I think, for 100 years. Now I know you're looking at me going, yeah, exactly. For a very long time. And was married to a very prominent person, a very high up professional. And I was going to go in a couple months and speak at a conference. And on the front end, I was doing some teaching and I knew something was weird. And all this, some of the stuff that you're describing, and it kept asking, and finally I said, are you, are you having an affair? And he went, no, I love you, I'm committed to you. You know, I just rolled my eyes. And so I was going to be gone for a week. And so this is advice that I give my people, is if you want to know, go hire a private investigator. They're not that expensive. And you'll know it's either yes or no, and you will have the proof that you need. And so that's exactly what I did. And I just said, well, I'm glad that you're not having an affair and that you love me. And I got on the plane on Sunday and didn't come back until Saturday. Well, he was having an affair with someone in his office. And she stayed the whole week at my house. And she put her clothes in my closet. She hung her clothes in my closet, put her clothes in my drawer, even let her drive my car.
[00:35:03] Lauren: What?
[00:35:04] Theresa: Yeah, yeah. And it was pretty bad.
[00:35:08] Lauren: I mean, shame on her. She obviously knew he was married.
[00:35:10] Theresa: Oh, well, yeah.
[00:35:11] Lauren: I can't stand a woman that's not a woman's woman. Like, exactly.
[00:35:15] Theresa: So I politely came back home. I was getting pictures and videos and, you know, and I still had to stay.
[00:35:22] Lauren: And I can't imagine how you had. I can't.
[00:35:25] Theresa: Only by the grace of God, let's just put it that way, and a good therapist and some friends. So I came home, I acted like nothing had happened, but let me carve out. So I was getting pictures and videos, right. So there was proof. And midway through the week, I picked up the phone, called my attorney and said, hey, drop the papers. This is what's happening. I'm done. And so I came home and acted like nothing happened and picked up, I think, midweek, the papers, and I walked over. This is, this is the funny part, not so funny. But I had moved to the other side of the house and I walked in the bedroom and I said, I know what you've done. And he was in Bed reading his Bible.
Uh huh. Of course he was. Yeah, of course he was. And as I said, I know what you've done and I know who you've done it with. So my advice, first of all, if you want to know, go hire a private investigator, but do your own work. I mean, there's so many women out there that do not even know, like what bank accounts, like how much money they have in savings and what investments are their name, are they beneficiary, is there life insurance, where are their financial credit cards? Do you have access to them? Go do your own work. Because you need to know these things regardless. And just what you said, they're going to screw up. They are.
[00:36:46] Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. And that was another thing that wasn't making sense because at the time, he was supposed to be putting his whole check in our joint bank account. We both had access to it. That's where my full check went. I did not have a separate bank account where my check went. His full check was supposed to be going in there. And I'm 99% sure it wasn't because one, where were those random debit cards?
[00:37:07] Theresa: Right.
[00:37:08] Lauren: And you know how you can set it up? Oh yeah. And he, and I asked him, I straight up asked him, I said, are you having a percentage of your money go to a different account? And he was like, no, it's that you can't even do it online. And I was like, what? You're telling me that your work is so far behind that you can't do those things online? I don't find that to be true. And I would say, let me see your, your pay stuff. And he'd be like, oh, they don't, it doesn't say like, how many hours I'm getting paid for and stuff. Because he would tell me he's working overtime. And I'm like, your hours aren't matching, so either you're hiding money or you're not working the overtime. And I think it was a mixture of the two.
[00:37:37] Theresa: Both.
[00:37:38] Lauren: Yeah, but yeah, I mean, like, my parents have been married for 43 years.
[00:37:42] Theresa: This year, I believe that's great.
[00:37:43] Lauren: Yeah. But my mom doesn't know anything. She has no idea how to log into any of the finances. And I get on her all the time for it. And I tell my dad, listen, y'all need to write this down because God forbid something happens to y'all.
[00:37:56] Theresa: Exactly.
[00:37:57] Lauren: Like if something happens to dad, we're not going to know how to get into anything.
[00:38:00] Theresa: Exactly. And you know, you ought to know, you ought to Be on the accounts. You ought to know where you're checking and savings and where the investments are and what brokerage firm. And does he have life insurance? Do you have life insurance? Do you have a safety deposit box? Can you get in it? Do you know what's in it? So all these things you really need to know, because even if you didn't divorce, but let's say your spouse just suddenly dies of a heart attack and you don't have this information. You're right. You're not even going to know what to do. And every woman should have a will, a living will, medical power of attorney.
[00:38:39] Lauren: Absolutely, I do.
[00:38:41] Theresa: Yeah, you should. And you should make sure that your spouse has those things as well.
[00:38:45] Lauren: Yeah, yeah.
How do you, as a therapist, view a lot of people now have separate bank accounts.
[00:38:53] Theresa: Yeah.
[00:38:53] Lauren: Do you see a harm in that? Like having separate bank accounts that are joint bank accounts? Like, can they have separate. But you still have access, so you can, like, log in, you know, if you needed to, Like. Because for me, I wanted separate bank accounts originally. We did. But then once he was going to put his money into it, I was like, hey, this is ours now.
[00:39:10] Theresa: Right.
[00:39:10] Lauren: And I gave him access to my bank account. And. And then we had that joint one. And I. I feel like my original thought was having separate accounts is better because I won't have to worry, like, my money's my money, your money's your money. But then I feel like that's a damaging thought for a marriage.
[00:39:27] Theresa: Well, it is, because there's no we.
And, you know, you come into a marriage. Is it. Is it like you say, your money, Is it your socks? Is it your groceries? So there's never a we. And when there's not a we, how do you be a couple?
[00:39:45] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:39:46] Theresa: How do you. How do you learn to navigate? Right. So I'm not saying that it can't work, but I think it's the reason why you want the separate accounts. You. You said that he had access to it, so why not have a joint account?
[00:40:00] Lauren: Right.
[00:40:00] Theresa: So where's the fear?
[00:40:02] Lauren: Yeah. And I think for me, you know, once we were. We did have a full joint account, and both checks were going into it, he kept saying, I give you all my money.
And I kept saying, but I'm paying off the debt. Then I would get mad and say, I'm paying off the debt that you cause. Because I paid tens of thousands of dollars for medical bills for him.
[00:40:24] Theresa: Right.
[00:40:25] Lauren: And I bought him two motorcycles. And, you know, like, there were tons of things. Like, even him Knowingly having these affairs. Last year, took one of my credit cards and paid $1,000 to get a tattoo covered up.
[00:40:38] Theresa: Wow.
[00:40:38] Lauren: And then $4,000 for Lasik.
[00:40:41] Theresa: Yeah.
[00:40:42] Lauren: And he goes, well, I covered the Lasik because part of my check, first of all, I didn't even cover all of it. What he didn't understand was, yes, you had a bigger check that week, but it didn't cover all of it. And also then you weren't contributing to the bills.
[00:40:56] Theresa: Right. And. And so let me carve out something. And when I said that it's better, at least, you know, it's a we. But maybe, you know, that you're into this marriage and you're, you're, what you're describing that you've got a spouse that's irresponsible. Why would you allow them to have access to it when they're irresponsible?
[00:41:17] Lauren: And I think I realized that way too late.
[00:41:19] Theresa: Yeah. And so I think that, that right. There might be a reason for separate accounts. However, you know, again, it goes back to full transparency and vulnerability and openness. And you can still do that because, let's face it, normally there's strengths and weaknesses in any relationship. Right. Well, maybe one spouse is better with finances than the other one.
[00:41:44] Lauren: Sure.
[00:41:45] Theresa: So you're going to let him do it?
[00:41:46] Lauren: I paid all the bills because I knew he couldn't pay them.
[00:41:48] Theresa: Exactly.
[00:41:49] Lauren: So but again, that was like him being like, well, you control the money. I'm like, I don't control the money. I pay the bills.
[00:41:54] Theresa: Right.
[00:41:55] Lauren: So when I met him, I, I did make him show me like a credit karma thing in the beginning. And he had a ton of stuff in collections. So I'm like, obviously you haven't paid bills in the past, so.
[00:42:05] Theresa: Right.
[00:42:05] Lauren: I'm going to be in charge of this because I don't want my credit score to be affected by that.
[00:42:09] Theresa: Right.
[00:42:10] Lauren: And maybe that also should have, should have been reply.
That's what I'd have to do now on dates. Be like, hey, can I see a credit score?
[00:42:18] Theresa: Oh, we could do a whole section on how to date after divorce.
[00:42:22] Lauren: Yeah, we're definitely gonna have to get into that. So we've touched on the physical, and I feel like we've touched on emotional to a degree.
[00:42:29] Theresa: We have. We've talked about self doubt, low self esteem. I think not trusting ourselves, not not even trusting others because we doubt ourselves in general.
[00:42:40] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:42:41] Theresa: And so that's a biggie.
[00:42:42] Lauren: So what about the spiritual aspect of it?
[00:42:45] Theresa: Well, that's a biggie because you know, if we're believers and we believe that God put us together with this person, and now we're faced with the fact that we're going to divorce, what do we do with that? Right? We didn't cause it. And, you know, again, we question. Because in my particular situation, I beg God, I beg God, save my marriage. Like, show me what my fault is. Show me how to be a better wife. And I knew it wasn't God's will for us to divorce, right? So why did he. Why did he not save my marriage?
[00:43:20] Lauren: Right?
[00:43:20] Theresa: And so, to be honest, I was angry at God.
[00:43:23] Lauren: Oh, yeah, me too.
[00:43:24] Theresa: And it's like, wait a minute, I've served you. And yet you've allowed this. You know, you can park the Red Sea, but you can't say, my marriage. What's up with this? God? And he knows that. He knows we're upset and is coming from a place of hurt. And so to stand back and go, wait a minute, I thought you were the God of miracles. And something we have to remember in those situations is, you know, we live in a fallen world, right, where there is sin. And God gives us free will, everybody. So while God's not happy that my spouse cheated, but he allowed it because he allows us as humans to have free will.
[00:44:06] Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I. I was absolutely angry, too, which is funny, because I hadn't been in Church in 19 years, and my ex, he was very anti church, like, anti all of it, which also red flag. Um, but I. At the time, I was like, well, I don't go to church anyway. I believe in God, right? I have my own relationship with him, but I'd had really bad experience in the church that I grew up in. And I was like, I'm not going back to a church.
[00:44:31] Theresa: Right?
[00:44:31] Lauren: And so I was like, I can just pray and love God on my own, right? And when all this happened, I was so angry that one of the things I told my therapist is I'm just. I'm. I'm mad. I'm beyond mad. And one of the things she was like, well, what do you think would help you? You know, do you. Do you need to get back to your roots? And by that, I knew what she was implying, and so I was just like, maybe. So I asked some people at, you know, at the gym where everybody went, and so I got invited to the Highlands, and I love it. And I cried every single Sunday for the first, like, two months, like, bless. One of my. One of the friends from the gym had tissues on her every single week to hand me because she knew that I was like, I didn't even bring tissues. I'm not going to do it. And then she just, like, starting.
Because I just. You're releasing that anger that you have with him. You're releasing the anger you have with yourself.
[00:45:35] Theresa: Right.
[00:45:36] Lauren: And just trying to figure out, how do you move forward and then how do I trust in the future if he puts someone else in my path that is a good fit? Like, how do I determine? Like, is this God's will? Like, is this God putting this person here?
[00:45:49] Theresa: Right.
[00:45:49] Lauren: Or is it just my free will and ignoring red flags? Like, it's a hard thing to deal with when, like, you said, the, you know, the God of miracles. Well, why couldn't the man that I loved unconditionally and would have done anything for, why couldn't you make him love me back that much?
[00:46:08] Theresa: Right. And, you know, I think it goes back to our core beliefs. Do we really believe that God is sovereign and he's in control? And if we do, then we have to believe that he gave our spouses free will to choose. Now, I want to make sure the listeners understand God didn't. God did not approve what they did. But again, sin entered the world and he allowed it. And it doesn't mean that God has forsaken us. And sometimes I think in our anger and our hurt and our pain, you know, we want to pull away. And the other thing that we didn't talk about on the emotional side is we can't think straight.
[00:46:50] Lauren: No.
[00:46:51] Theresa: I mean, the brain is all jumbled up. We have trouble making decisions, and we go, okay, maybe I'm getting Alzheimer's, right? Because I can't remember anything and I can't make a decision. And even reading the Bible, like, I remember feeling like I'm going to take this book and throw it across the room because it does nothing for me. Because I would read the same scripture over and over, and it's going like, I'm going crazy. I'm going through it to put me in a nursing home. Right. And so that's normal. But as we start to heal and God can be that comfort and he can be our strength again, it just takes time.
[00:47:32] Lauren: Yeah, it's. It's hard because you're trying not to blame him, but you can't. Like, we're imperfect people, so we're looking for someone to blame. And Even though it's 100% the spouse that did it, that needs all the blame, you're also like, I need. I need Something else, because I can't yell at him.
[00:47:47] Theresa: He's gone. He's gone. Well, and I think also the church and as a. As a whole, sometimes doesn't help the situation. And I'll just say another part of my own story. Went to a church and had gone to that particular group for 10 years, right? So knew everybody, larger group. And the first Sunday that I came to church after this all came out, and it wasn't like it was a he said, she said. I mean, he had gone out in public while we were still married with this particular person.
[00:48:24] Lauren: Wow.
[00:48:24] Theresa: Yeah. And so I went to church hurting and thought this was my people, and this is where I'm going to get, like, support. And the first words out of a couple's mouth was, what did you do? What did you do to cause him to have the affair? Right? And it's like, what? And the next Sunday, I just kind of shoved it off, and we had donuts and coffee, and you'd get some. And I always sat in the same spot, right? And so I got ready to sit down, and the gentleman walks up to me and he says, are you going to sit there? And I went, well, yeah, always sit there. And he said, well, we really, really appreciate if you would move somewhere else. My wife doesn't feel comfortable with you because you're getting a divorce. And I went, what?
And so I left in tears. And I thought, okay, one more time, right? This just. This just can't be happening. I mean, I knew all these people, right? And so the third strike, I went, I thought, okay, I made it through Sunday school life group. I got ready to le. And this couple walks up to me, and this woman looks at me. She says, you know, I really feel like that I need to say this to you. The Lord has said, oh, here you. We go. When somebody says that, just. Yeah, be aware. And she said, you're. You filed for divorce. You are going to hell. You need to forgive him and take him back. And I said, ma'am, I said, there's a problem with this. I said, because he's out running around with her. How is that possible?
It's not.
[00:49:55] Lauren: Yeah.
[00:49:56] Theresa: And all of those people may have had great intentions, but.
Exactly. It was so hurtful and so painful.
[00:50:05] Lauren: Yeah. I mean, because these are people that are supposed to be. First of all, where doesn't God tell us not to judge? Just.
[00:50:10] Theresa: Yeah.
[00:50:11] Lauren: But the second, like, these are supposed to be, like, your church family, and they completely just abandoned you.
[00:50:18] Theresa: They did.
[00:50:18] Lauren: And made you feel alone.
[00:50:21] Theresa: Right.
[00:50:21] Lauren: Instead of coming around you and supporting you.
[00:50:24] Theresa: Right. And so what we do if we're not careful, you know, I would blame God for those people. I would say, okay, the church is horrible. Right. I'm never going to step foot back now. I haven't been back to that church, let's just put it that way. But I didn't give up on God, and I didn't give up on going to church because we all are imperfect people, right?
[00:50:45] Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, like I said, I took a huge break, you know, after I graduated high school, and I wasn't forced to go.
[00:50:52] Theresa: There you go.
[00:50:53] Lauren: I was like, I'm not going. But I can say that getting back in, like, even I missed this past Sunday.
[00:51:00] Theresa: And.
[00:51:00] Lauren: But I ended up just watching it online because I felt like I was. I was miss. I was missing something.
[00:51:05] Theresa: Right.
[00:51:05] Lauren: I was like, oh, wait, where's. Where is it? So I. And so I ended up listening to it. And it's amazing how much it's made a difference, actually. Being somewhere that so far has been a very positive experience. And I think, honestly, part of it for me may be because it's so big. I already had people that I knew, so I already have that core support system because I know them from outside of church, and I don't have to make friends with people who might end up being like that.
[00:51:33] Theresa: Well, you know, one of the things that we have to remember, the church is made of imperfect people, and you're gonna get hurt is what you do with it.
[00:51:42] Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. But I think that's interesting because I feel like a lot of people don't talk about the spiritual betrayal side of it.
[00:51:49] Theresa: Right.
[00:51:49] Lauren: We only talk about, like, the physical and emotional on how it affects us, but we don't talk about how it affects us spiritually. For some people, it may drive them that maybe they didn't believe, and then it drives them to them.
[00:51:59] Theresa: Right.
[00:52:00] Lauren: And I know that that happens, too, because I think, you know, I joke now that God allowed it to happen, to bring me home.
[00:52:06] Theresa: Yeah.
[00:52:07] Lauren: And so, again, my ex had free will. He was gonna do it anyway. Exactly. But I'm like, that's why God didn't send the miracle, because he was like, you need to come back.
[00:52:17] Theresa: Well. And, you know, here's the thing. God doesn't waste our pain. We do. And so just like you and I have experienced betrayal, trauma, I never want another woman to walk that path alone. And so I feel like, well, I don't ever want to walk that path again. Right. But I do believe that God used That pain and what I learned from it to be able to help others.
[00:52:44] Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, your profession alone, you're helping a ton of people. And that's honestly one of the main reasons why we wanted to start this podcast, was to try to reach people that maybe feel like they're alone. Like, find another way to try to reach a community, to be like, you are not alone in feeling all this pain from the betrayals you've been through. Exactly, because the amount of women who have been through betrayals, it's outlandish. Like, the amount of women who you see posting on all the Facebook sites and everything else. And I've started reaching out to a lot of them. Hey, come tell your story. You can be anonymous. I think it's important.
[00:53:21] Theresa: Well, it is. And, you know, all the emotions that come with that anger. I mean, we could do a whole series on anger and forgiveness. Forgiveness and what it is and what it's not and how to process through it. But it's okay to have all those emotions, but you will get through it.
[00:53:36] Lauren: Yeah. It just takes time, time, time. And professional help.
[00:53:41] Theresa: There you go.
[00:53:42] Lauren: Well, thank you so much for coming on. It was a pleasure.
[00:53:45] Theresa: Oh, I enjoyed it.
[00:53:46] Lauren: And we would love to have you back and actually do a series on anger and do something on the forgiveness. I think that's a big one. And then also how we go forward.
[00:53:55] Theresa: Yes.
[00:53:55] Lauren: How do you move forward with this? Because, you know, part of this for me and Bri is that we're in the dating world right now, and it's. We call it a dumpster fire, because it is.
[00:54:06] Theresa: Well, you have to learn how to date. And it's. You know, I just want to throw this little teaser out there. Dating is not about finding your next soulmate. Dating is about learning about you.
[00:54:17] Lauren: Oh, I love that. Oh, that's great. Well, till next time.
[00:54:21] Theresa: Till next time.
