Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This episode is proudly brought to you by the law firm Ryan and Rouse. If you or a loved one have been injured or need legal help for changing family circumstances, contact the personal injury and family law attorneys at Ryan and rouse today at 256-801-1000 or visit them online at www.alabamalaw.com. when your future is on the line, don't go at it alone. Hey, guys. Welcome back to Spill the Tea Unfiltered.
How's everybody's week?
[00:00:29] Speaker B: We're all alive.
[00:00:30] Speaker A: You're alive.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: We're alive.
[00:00:32] Speaker A: How are you?
Good, good. Well, today we have Ashley and Kate with us from Bridge and Bloom Therapy Services llc.
You primarily work with children?
[00:00:45] Speaker B: We do children. And adults.
[00:00:46] Speaker A: And adults.
[00:00:46] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: Yeah. So you do all the things, but we're specifically going to probably lean more towards talking about like some children situations today as it relates to all the things we talk about here on Spill the Tea. So let's get into what we want to talk about today.
[00:01:03] Speaker C: Okay.
So my name is Kate. I'm a therapist with Bridge and Bloom and want to introduce yourself.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: Ashley. I'm Ashley. And again, co owner and therapist at Bridge and Bloom, Kate.
[00:01:16] Speaker C: So we work with kids and adults, but primarily see people that maybe have had some kind of trauma or conflict going on. One of our specialties is working with kids that are in high conflict, kind of divorce cases or, you know, have had some kind of major life event.
So we thought we would talk a little bit today about complex PTSD and how that might show up some patterns that might come up in, you know, how you are approaching relationships. And also just thinking about when you have children that are in the mix, what those considerations might need to be not only for, you know, a separation that might happen, but also for like looking forward to the future and getting in other future relationships.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: We try to focus on serving the whole family unit so working through things like co parenting issues, how to navigate those more toxic relationships when you have kids involved so that we can kind of hopefully break the cycle and it doesn't continue down the line.
[00:02:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's important. You know, I am very blessed. I don't come from a broken home or a divorce or anything like that. I don't want to call them broken homes. Not all the homes are broken, but.
And I don't have kids. So I think this is important for those listeners that either have been through something that is traumatic and maybe they themselves haven't worked through it, maybe they need to come talk to you guys or they have kids and they're going through something similar and especially like recent situations that I've been made aware of too, like if a kid already went through, you know, their parents divorced and then their parents remarried and then they get divorced. And so then it's just, it's just keeps building on, you know, you had a step parent, you had a stable home, now that's gone. And then, you know, then this one gets divorced and then what if they get married again and these, you know, multiple families within a child's life when they're living at the home and how that affects them. So I think that's great.
[00:03:18] Speaker C: I think we see kind of two extremes where there are families that maybe there's a lot of conflict in the marriage, there's a lot of conflict in the relationship, and there's a fear of separation because there are children. And it becomes a very long, drawn out process where it can be more unhealthy sometimes for the family unit to stay together.
But then we also, you know, do know that when there is a separation, it is hard on the kids and it is something that it's a trauma. I mean, it's, it's something that they have to work through and they have to, you know, be okay with and accept as well.
[00:03:51] Speaker A: It sounds like either way there's going to be a trauma because you're either going to deal with the conflict in the home or potentially a separation or divorce and having to also come to terms with that. So I'm sure everything's case specific, but is there one? Is it, do you see most of the time that if the parents do separate and end up in a better place personally, that ends up being better for the kids. Because I know I have a lot of friends who are staying in marriages solely because they're of the kids.
[00:04:25] Speaker B: So what's going to impact kids is having a caregiver that they can orient themselves to that's going to tell them like this is safe. This is how we handle our emotions.
Caregivers who aren't afraid to be honest with their kids about like the grief and loss that come with separation and divorce.
And you know, even if it's for better opportunities, a better future for everyone involved, there is loss there. This isn't the future we thought we were having. Nobody goes typically goes into a marriage thinking they're going to get divorced.
So we have to grieve to heal that trauma.
What we thought was going to be, even if we have these beautiful blended families with all of these people, it's Typically not the best picture that we had in mind at the beginning.
[00:05:05] Speaker A: Right.
[00:05:06] Speaker B: So to heal any kind of trauma, we have to go through that grief and loss process.
And I think when families are ready to do that, regardless of the decisions they make there, there can be healing for, for the better to, for to have these whole healthy, happy, well developed kids. But I think one of the first steps is just acknowledging like this is really hard and we're going to get through it together.
[00:05:29] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it just, it's also like dependent, I feel like on kids ages too, because a kid that's three isn't going to understand as much as a kid that's 16.
So those are two different things to have to, to talk about as well.
[00:05:43] Speaker D: I think it's also really important like how they handle the situation after with their co parenting skills afterwards because like I do come from a broken home. And the fact that my parents were able to get along better when they were made things a lot easier than it was when I didn't see my dad for months at a time because they were fussing and fighting. Right.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: And that takes a lot of like self awareness and acknowledgement of, hey, like I need to put my pride aside and I need to be able to focus on these kids and not what I want.
Typically we see one parent heal a lot quicker than the other and it takes a lot of patience and ultimately getting to a point of almost indifferent towards the other parent. They have to heal all of that hurt and pain in order to just be able to co parent in a way or you know, we hear a lot of people who parallel parent and they're kind of doing their own thing. But to co parent cohesively, each person has to ultimately work through their healing process and get some of that anger and, and like I said before, that grief out on their own.
[00:06:47] Speaker A: I can imagine that can be pretty hard too for some people. Like there are just some people out there who are like, I'm fine, I don't need to heal. What I did was fine. You know, and like in my situation with Dick, he truly believes that he did nothing wrong. And you know, the fact that we talked about it before, whenever I said, oh, would you want your daughter to marry somebody like you? And he's like, yeah, I'm great. And I'm like, what, you want someone to marry somebody who has 20 plus affairs? Cool, sounds great.
But I think that, that you know, when you have someone like that, it makes it a lot harder to work with. And so have you guys had to deal with some more difficult people like that. And like how do you, how or how do you tell the one that is trying to co parent, like how to deal with a more difficult out of the two?
[00:07:38] Speaker C: Yeah, and I think that's pretty common where there may be one that's a lot more resistant or a lot, it feels like it's not their fault. And with that parent that is seeking help, I like to try to reassure them that, you know, as long as there's at least one caregiver that is really working on themselves and really trying to heal, then that's going to lead to better outcomes for the kids. You can't control the other person. You can only control yourself and you can control how you are able to parent and how you are able to show up for your kid. So sometimes it's. It sucks. You know, that's not what you want is for your child to have to deal with a parent that's not healed. But at the same time being that safe place for them to come back to. If, you know, there's kind of the split custody kind of situation, it might be very different homes, but having that safe place and being somebody that is there to listen is telling them the truth in a developmentally appropriate way and is, you know, doing their own healing work is going to lead to better outcomes even if the other parent isn't on board.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: And I think something Kate said is really important. As you know, it is important to tell kids the truth in a developmentally appropriate way. We have kind of both spectrums. We have parents that way over share and the kids know all of the details and they're involved in, you know, the finances of it and you know, mom said you owe her $20 for the Dr. Co pay and things like that. Right. Like kind of toxic and super involved. And then we have the other end of the spectrum where they have no clue what's going on. And when kids don't know the truth, they tend to fill in the blanks with something. And, and so we're always trying to encourage parents to talk to their kids. You know, they don't need to know all of the ins and outs of what's happened, but they need to know, you know, we're not gonna get back together one day. And this is what our life looks like. It is different. It's different than some of your friends. It's different than what you thought it might be based on, you know, how old they are and what they can emotionally handle. That emotional maturity level.
[00:09:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's the hard thing is how do you determine?
And also when you have one of the other parents that already is telling the kid things that they don't need to know, and also lying to them and then coming to the parent that's trying to be more appropriate with the age and be honest but not tell them everything. But then when the lies are happening back and forth, it gets harder to not be like, no, your father's lying.
It's hard to not do that. And like, for me, my concern with my previous stepdaughter is that one day her father is going to use her.
One day that that man is not going to have a woman to rely on because he's run through everybody and his mom's not going to be here to bail him out and then his daughter's who he's going to come after. And that's what worries me. So like, how do you tell a child, I mean, she's 16 and a half, how do you tell her that somebody that's that age, like, hey, she knows he's manipulative, like that's already a thing, she knows that. But like she wants a relationship with her father, like that's what she wants more than anything. But how do you tell her, like, hey, just be careful because this might end up being very manipulated down the road.
[00:10:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that there is a level that you can't control that because they're gonna grow up and they're gonna make their own decisions and there's a, adolescence is a really, that time where they're starting to show that independence and make those decisions and you want to be there to support them, but you don't want to feel controlling. The best thing I can say is to instill some critical thinking skills by asking really open ended questions. You know, what do you, what do you think dad meant by that? What do you think is the right answer here? And having them think through it themselves so that they start to build those skills to question, to question what's going on with, you know, the situation and kind of form their own opinions. Because, because ultimately you want them to be able to resist some outside opinions, resist other people telling them, this is how you should think, this is how you should believe about, you know, the other parent or, or anybody really. It's, it's a good thing to do with any situation.
But that is, and being that supportive person as well, and not being the one to talk bad about the other parent, even if they're talking bad about you, I know that can be really hard. But it is something that they will notice. Kids will understand that even if it's not something that they notice consciously, they will eventually understand, like, this is. This is toxic behavior.
[00:11:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: And we're always going to encourage kids to be involved in therapy when they're ready and when parents are ready to help participate. Like having an adult that, you know, it's their job to not put, you know, my emotions on a child or a client, where kids can go and process and express themselves freely, and they understand, like, this person's on my side there. It's not their job to report back to mom or report back to dad. They're here to support me. And, you know, we do a lot of boundary work and teaching kids how to be safe, but also express their emotions in healthy ways and identify safe adults. Like, a lot of therapy work is who is safe in your circle and what makes them safe.
And not necessarily only talking about, like, physical safety, but that emotional safety as well. Is it safe when someone's trying to manipulate or they lie to you or they disappoint you?
Um, and so, you know, not just because we're therapists, but we also, you know, that's just really important for kids to have whenever they're ready to. To get to that point.
[00:12:46] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, like, for me, we.
We still have a very good relationship, me and her, which I. I am so thankful for. And her mother is very supportive of her father. Not so much, but her mother's very supportive of it. But I will. Like, when we hang out, I don't bring him up because I'm like, I'm not gonna bring up your dad. She does, because she feels like she. She sometimes still wants to talk about him.
But, like, she told me, she's like, hey, I don't want you to be mad at me. I was like, for what? She's like, I unfollowed you on tick tock. I was like, that's okay. I was like, why would I be mad at you? And she was like, well, I just didn't want you to think I, like, was getting rid of you or something. I was like, no, honey. I was like, that's fine. She was like, I just. I know you post things about dad, and. And so I just don't want to necessarily see it all the time. I said, honey, that is perfectly fine. Like, I literally do not take offense to that. I said, if I want to talk to you, I text you or I call you. I was like, so you don't need to follow Me on social media, that's perfectly fine. Because I think. And I told her, I said it's good not to. I said I'm healing in my way.
And so it's okay for you not to see how I'm processing and how I'm feeling because she does know a lot of the stuff that went down. So it's, she knows now and she doesn't need to be bombarded with it all the time.
Whenever I make hilarious.
[00:14:02] Speaker B: That's really good. Boundaries on her part, right?
[00:14:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: Somewhere along the way she learned it's okay for me to have this boundary and she learned from you. I can have this boundary and enforce it and she's not going to freak out.
[00:14:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: And I'm not going to lose her. And so those are two really good, you know, skills.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: I was proud of her. I was very proud of her for that.
[00:14:18] Speaker D: I like that she showed like healthy communication too. Instead of like just drawing that line and like put pushing you away because you were doing things that she didn't really want to see. Like she drew that healthy line and communicated with you how she felt. And I mean for a 16 year old girl that's going, yeah, she's very.
[00:14:37] Speaker A: Intelligent for, for her and she's been through a lot, bless her. And I know a lot of kids are in that boat, so.
And some kids don't ever get to learn boundaries. I didn't as a kid. Lord.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: I didn't either.
[00:14:50] Speaker D: I didn't either. I was a people pleaser. I'm still working through people pleasing. It is the hardest thing to get past.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: Well, we have her to teach us.
[00:14:58] Speaker C: How not to be people pleasers.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm definitely not that but my boundaries were the opposite where I'd be like, what? You're doing what? That's a horrible idea.
Now I'm like, let's think about it.
Is that good? Is that you're going to do it anyway? Okay. I still love you. I'm here.
So, you know, it's the, it's the two sides of that, of that coin. But that, I mean I've been, we've all been in therapy and for kids.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: It'S like a lot of modeling caregivers model like how we handle emotions, how we deal with hard life stuff. And kids are going to see that and catch on to it and, and typically model what they see. So ideally we're modeling good emotional regulation and, and self control and all of those things.
Hopefully.
[00:15:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Or at least somebody is somewhere in their life.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: It's just, I Mean, it's hard sometimes, whenever, depending on like what you're going through.
Um, for sure to, to actually stay as calm and everything as you need to. And like, for me, my thing was like, I just shut down. So like, I was just like, I don't, I am not here until I was able to start processing some stuff. Um, yeah. Which probably wasn't the best either, honestly.
[00:16:07] Speaker C: Yeah. And that's why therapy for the caregiver is so important. Because the kids are going to see whatever your response is and they're going to, they're going to mimic that.
[00:16:14] Speaker A: So will you see both, like in the same family or is that a conflict of interest in any way? Like how does that work?
[00:16:20] Speaker B: We typically try to tag team. So if she sees a child, I'll see a parent or vice versa.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: Because we want kids to have like that safe space and not even though we wouldn't share that information. You don't want them to feel like you might.
[00:16:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Kids don't know that.
[00:16:32] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: So we, we will do some tag teaming stuff. We also will do the occasional like caregiver session if we're seeing the kid. But a lot of times we get kids in session and they're like, I'm just trying to be a kid. And then we have the caregiver who's carrying all of this anger, resentment or sadness and they haven't even begun to process it. So we might say like, hey, let's take, you know, three months to really dive into how this has affected you. And then if your kids still need some treatment after, we'll, we'll go there.
[00:17:04] Speaker C: Yeah. I would say most of the time when someone wants their child to have therapy, we really feel like it's the parent that needs that first.
[00:17:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:12] Speaker C: And maybe they can do it concurrently, but it definitely turns out to be the case most of the time.
[00:17:18] Speaker A: Yeah, that would make sense. And I think a generation's just certain generations, it's hard for them, they don't want therapy. So I think our generation is trying to fix that. We're like therapy emotions.
[00:17:29] Speaker C: Let's talk about it.
[00:17:30] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:17:30] Speaker D: I especially couldn't imagine like coming out of abusive relationship but still having to co parent with that parent because they weren't abusive to the child, but they were abusive to you.
I have a friend that has that similar experience where she still struggles to heal from that because obviously from the abuse she got from him, she has no trust in him with her child and now she has to leave her child with him.
[00:17:53] Speaker B: And the fact of the matter is like people can be really crappy partners and still be good parents.
And you know, there are cases when that's not true. But I, you know, we spend a lot of time educating parents on like are they really not safe or are you just hurt right now? Because at the end of the day it is best case scenario for kids to think both of their parents are superheroes and, and to be able to have those good relationships with them and have boundaries with them and maintain some form of contact.
So we do a lot of, I would say like psychoeducation with parents on, you know, I understand that you're going to panic when you spend your first weekend without your child, but they still need to have a relationship with their other, with their other parent.
[00:18:33] Speaker C: Right.
[00:18:34] Speaker B: So there's someone that I met recently and they're dealing with parental alienation where what is some advice that you would.
[00:18:42] Speaker C: Give to the parent who is not.
[00:18:44] Speaker B: Able to have a healthy co parenting relationship with the other parent in that sort of situation.
In that sort of situation. If there are no immediate risk factors, I'm always going to refer to some kind of attorney to have an established court order. That's always my advice.
Even if parents think that we're like best buds and we don't need that and we're going to be so, you know, fantastic without paperwork. I always recommend having something established before the court because when the emotions get high, you have something to go back to. So as on a practical level, I'm always referring people out to go like get a consultation, have something established because those exist for a reason.
We might be best friends now, but at some point someone's gonna move on and feelings are gonna get hurt or you know, right now you are alienated. And sometimes parents don't realize like they have rights and, and there are schedules and things to protect them. So on a practical level that's what I always recommend. As far as, you know, other stuff.
[00:19:44] Speaker C: It'S really, really tough on the parent that feels alienated for sure because they know that maybe the other parent is giving a lot of information that's untrue and they feel like I need to jump to defend myself or they start to feel like they need to attack the other parent. And so that is something that we work, can work on in therapy sometimes about like we really need to take a step back. Right. I see a lot of times when it can lead to heightened emotions and then we suddenly are going to make an allegation against that without a lot of information or without a lot of evidence. Right. And there may be a gut feeling, and maybe the gut feeling is true. We do, you know, we need to trust our gut, but that doesn't necessarily mean we need to, like, get authorities involved right away. So making sure that you're making really sound decisions, getting a lot of outside opinions from professionals to, like, know the right step forward. Because what you don't want to do is build up a bunch of, like, false reports, and then suddenly you, like, lose your credibility.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaking of reporting, though, because I'm guessing you guys are mandated reporters. Yes. If there is actual abuse going on in the home.
Because I have a good friend of mine, and her.
Her custody situation is summer. Like, six weeks in the summer, her daughter goes up to another state, and then Christmas, and that's pretty much it.
It's very obvious, at least to me seeing it. Granted, I'm biased. She's my friend. Like, I'm biased towards her, but just seeing everything she's been through.
He is trying to use the kid. Like, he doesn't actually. He does not call her when she's not there. Not once, not even on her birthday. Like, does not call her, does not have any contact. But then when she says, hey, she doesn't want to come, he's like, no, she needs to come. And, like, causes a scene. When my friend got remarried, it was a. A whole thing. And this last time, she came back a little different. Like, something. Something happened. Like, you know her. She knew. She was, like, something happened to my daughter. And she. She. They have a therapist, and it still hasn't fully come out, but we're pretty sure from the tidbits that her daughter has shared with her is that her cousin touched her inappropriately.
So then she was like, I'm not sending my daughter back up there.
Like, Court says I have to send her. Why would I send her? Like, if she's like something, she's angry. She was searching things on social, like, on YouTube that she shouldn't know about. She sticks.
So something happened right while she was up there. And so she, like, confronted him, and he, like, lost it. And it's like, you know, threatening to take the kid fully and all that. Like, you know, it's just. It's gotten really, really nasty. So when you do feel like there is something that did actually happen, what do you recommend the parents do other than, I guess, continue therapy? Like, what do you do?
[00:22:37] Speaker C: Yeah, the first thing I would say is to be really careful about questioning the child, because that can lead to tainting. Sometimes we can inadvertently Kind of lead a child in a certain direction.
It's a little bit, you know, as teenagers, it's a little bit harder to do that. But especially the younger they are, you know, you start asking a lot of questions without really knowing how to ask those questions appropriately. It can change things a little bit. So you don't want your child to say one thing and then go and say something else. You know, it makes it look like something was coached. So just instead of questioning the child, you know, whatever the child says to you, being able to say, thank you for telling me, is there anything else you want to tell me? And just leaving it very open, you know, and, or saying something like tell me more about that.
And then whatever that child says, if it's enough to feel like there's report, like you feel like something happened, then making a report to the proper channels. So that would be DHR in Alabama and, or, you know, DCS and other states and the law enforcement. So you generally, the law enforcement is going to be in the place where it happened and DCS is going to be the place where the child resides. Now if it is something like a child on child situation like that, then law enforcement doesn't necessarily get involved in those. That's more of a DCS thing.
[00:23:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:51] Speaker C: So. And also I would hope that there is a good attorney, that the parent has a good attorney and being able to consult with them as well about. Here's what's, here's what I have. What are my next steps?
[00:24:04] Speaker A: If you were seeing that child, would it be beneficial? I know you can't tell what the child has told you per se, but if the mother came to you and said like, this is what she's told me, like, is that beneficial to you to have a back story or does that affect you guys as well with your biases and stuff?
[00:24:23] Speaker C: Yeah, it does. So Ashley and I are a little bit unique than we are both trained as forensic interviewers because we did work as forensic interviewers. So we have that background. But some, a lot of therapists don't.
But what we can find sometimes is that parents don't always get the full story. And so they like bring a child to therapy and say get it out of them. Right. So we kind of become this. It's an agenda at that point.
[00:24:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:44] Speaker C: Which is not in the child's best interest. And so what we tell parents is that we will let them talk about what they need to talk about, but we're not going to try to force a disclosure in therapy. That's not what therapy's for.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:54] Speaker C: Forensic interviews were for that. So that if there's enough to feel like there needs to be a forensic interview, then we refer to that.
And if there is something that's disclosed in therapy that has. Is enough for a report, then we do report it as mandated reporters.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. I think that's good for parents to know if they have been through something and feel like, can they go to you or can they go to whoever the therapist is to say something?
[00:25:17] Speaker B: It is tricky. I think sometimes when things like that happen, we have parents who really want to protect their kids. So we go a little bit nuclear and we're like, well, they just can't go back. They can't see them. And then we start withholding and. And then that creates more issues down the line. Because ultimately, you know, typically there are court orders that mandate what we have to do, and there are entities in place to help establish safety for children. And that's why we make reports to DHR. That's why law enforcement gets involved. So DHR's job is to investigate these concerns. They have timeframes, they have policies and protocols that they do to. To ensure safety for kids. You know, they safety plan and. And help look for other resources.
And that safety plan is typically not. They never get to see their dad again. It's typically, you know, something like an increase in supervision, making sure, you know, those kids aren't alone together, resources for the other child.
[00:26:12] Speaker A: Because something's probably going on there too.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: And although it might be our instinct to be like, they just can't go back, that's not really like, the most. The best way to approach it, because if that's the step that needs to be taken, some other entity is going to tell you that. Yeah, and we just always try to avoid kind of launching those nukes and going extreme if. If we don't have the.
[00:26:35] Speaker C: The.
[00:26:36] Speaker B: The authority and the support to do so.
[00:26:38] Speaker A: And it's. I mean, sadly, we live in a world where child crimes happen every day and happen a lot. And like, I'm a victim of it as a child.
And like, growing up, we just didn't talk about it. So, like, I didn't even really process it until I was in my late 20s.
So do you guys. Is that something you guys will talk about too? Like, specifically, if there's somebody in the local area that's like, I think my child's been through something, or they said they have been through something.
Will you. You guys work with the children through that? Through the sexual abuse and the trauma.
[00:27:15] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah, that's one of our specialties is childhood sexual abuse. And so it can be the child or if you are an adult and have had childhood sexual abus.
A lot of times they don't disclose as children. I mean, that's.
[00:27:27] Speaker A: No, I didn't common.
[00:27:28] Speaker C: But if they do or if there's some. A lot of. Sometimes it's what's called like a forced disclosure. Right. So maybe there is other evidence that comes out or someone sees something and then the child feels very closed off and can get really shut down because they, they weren't ready to talk about it, but it was kind of forced that they had to talk about it. So that can be a tricky situation and therapy can really help with that.
[00:27:49] Speaker A: Do you have any tips for parents as far as it goes to. Because it's. We just live in a world where, you know, it could be anybody. Mine was my neighbor, you know, like, it could literally be anybody. So do you have any tips for parents on how to keep their kids safe without going. Without scaring them into what this world currently is?
[00:28:05] Speaker B: The first things that come to mind are always going to be like limiting that social media access.
Social media, Snapchat, even Roblox, that's one of the ones that we see a lot of that people don't realize because it's like disguised as kid friendly.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: There's predators in there.
[00:28:19] Speaker B: Monitoring and limiting at a young age.
You know, I don't want to sound like, like the negative Nancy, but I'm just a huge fan of kids not having access to that if they can't. You know, there's, there's age limits for a reason, I guess we should say.
But I also always tell parents, you know, when you're modeling appropriate boundaries, you're modeling, it's okay to tell me anything and I'm going to listen to you and I'm going to support you.
That is a really great protective factor for kids to have.
When I have a parent who's like, I just can't. They can't go to their dad's. Like, there's nothing that's gone on at dad's. You know, that's. They, they have a right to go there. Their dad has a right to visitation.
But they're going to know that if something happens, they can call you. They have that safety plan in place. I've got a lot of kids that have like a secret code emoji or whatever it might be that they've established with, with their parent or caregiver.
[00:29:09] Speaker A: I Had a secret word.
[00:29:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And so teaching kids like, there's a safety plan in place and when or when you need me, I'm going to be there. And I think those are the first things that come to mind. What do you.
[00:29:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I think also establishing body boundaries. Super young. It doesn't have to be sexual or anything. Like that's not developmentally appropriate. But just teaching them that they have a right to decide who touches their body in any way. They can refuse hugs. They can say yes, they can say no. It's up to them. And also, you know, with friends, like, they don't need to get in a friend's face if that's not someone that is okay with that. So it goes both ways. So teaching that even with parents. Right. So being able, if your child is, you know, saying, I don't like that you're tickling me that way, or like, stop, I don't like that. Then backing off and like showing them that they have that agency. So that's a really big one. Also teaching the correct terms for genitalia. Very important.
Just, you know, vulva, vagina, penis.
[00:30:07] Speaker A: Like actually saying it.
[00:30:08] Speaker C: Actually saying it. Making sure they know that those parts are, know, private, that they. And if anything were to happen that they didn't feel was right with someone about the private part, then they need to tell. Yeah. So just having those conversations young, making them not something where it's like, let's sit down and we're going to have a serious conversation.
[00:30:25] Speaker A: The birds and the bees and then.
[00:30:26] Speaker C: They talk around it, you know, just talking about it all, all the time. Right. If something comes up, make making remarks about it. So it's just very normalized to talk about that.
[00:30:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's really important because like, I. I mean, I had a safe word with my parents. It was more for like, you know, if I was out sleepover and I just suddenly wanted to go home, I could call mom. Say like we could go to the store and pick up watermelon and she would know to come get me and she would make up an excuse so I wouldn't be embarrassed.
I again, had great parents, but I didn't tell them.
And it's not that I. Because there's that shame that comes with it because like you, I know something happened that wasn't supposed to happen. And like, are my parents going to get rid of me? I was five years old. Like, my thought is like, are my parents going to get rid of me? Because I'm like, I should be ashamed of myself and Stuff like kids don't understand those things. I mean, honestly, it's probably why I don't want kids. It's a huge. I mean, it's probably a huge part of it, right? Like, I also work some awful stuff, but like, I went through something and I'm like, no, I'm good. Like, I don't wanna. I don't wanna risk bringing somebody else into the world that that's gonna happen to them. And, and there are so many power.
[00:31:27] Speaker B: And control dynamics when it comes to any kind of abuse. Right. We don't always know what all of those are, and it's very, very complex. And parents can do all of the right things and kids still might not tell. And parents can be very.
All of the safety plans and bad things still happen. And that's a really hard pill to swallow. So we center a lot of our work and interactions with kids on what is safe. How do we get back to being safe? How do we cope with this?
Because focusing all of our energy on how do we prevent this forever is. It's just not. It's not feasible, it's not practical, it's not going to be the best way to help them.
And I think sometimes parents need to hear, you didn't do anything wrong. Sometimes, you know, these things happen and you support your kid and you're there for them and you can't control how quickly they disclose it, how quickly they process it.
You know, that's all. Again, it's. It kind of goes back to that, like, focusing on what we can control thing, which is almost impossible a lot of times.
[00:32:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
Is there a. Is there anything that you would say to parents who do know that their kids were abused? Like, how to, like what do you tell the parents in, in therapy? Like, how to help them, their kids cope with those things? Like, yeah. Do you do. Is it better to talk about it and like, try to make it be like, hey, we can talk about this and it's not stigmatized. Like, you can talk to me about it. But then does that. Or does that trauma like, re. Traumatize the child to bring it up again? Like, what do you.
[00:32:56] Speaker C: I always tell parents to follow the kids lead. If that, if the child's bringing it up, then we talk about it and we don't make it a shameful thing and we talk about whatever they want to talk about, but the parent doesn't need to bring it up. You know, so that's kind of where that line is because, you know, parents constantly. Are you okay? Are you okay? You Know, or sometimes we see parents, especially with younger kids, if they know something's happened, they kind of get real lax on boundaries and discipline and all of a sudden like, oh, now we're having all these behavior problems. It doesn't mean that there's not boundaries in place just because, you know, you know, you feel bad that something's happened. So making sure that you're, you're respecting their agency but also setting those boundaries and continuing with, kind of continuing life as normal. Right. They don't want to feel like what's happened to them has changed their whole family forever. Right. They want to feel like this has happened and we got through it.
[00:33:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:39] Speaker B: And security, routine and boundaries are what help kids feel safe. We are creating, it's almost like a fenced in backyard. Right. Like we are creating a safe area for you to be. But we have to have rules and routines and, and things to, in order to establish that. Because when we don't have that, kids, you know, we, kids ultimately do feel unsafe. And I think as, like, as adults, we sometimes feel that way. You know, even, you know, for example, the holiday season, all of our routines are out the window and we all kind of just feel crappy. You know, there's this underlying like, I can't wait till the new year. I can't wait until I feel, you know, get back in my, my schedule, my routine.
Kids have that all the time and they really need that structure in order to process things. And then what we'll see sometimes is parents are like, well, they haven't talked about it at all. And then we're in the checkout line at Kroger and all of a sudden they brought it up and it's because we're providing that safe space in that structure. And so Kate's definitely just reiterate that 100% is following their lead, giving them the space to talk about it when they want to, not freaking out when they do. And, and taking time to sit in the silence and be comfortable with not knowing until they're ready.
[00:34:43] Speaker C: Kids, especially young kids also, they do not sit down and say, I'm. We're going to sit down, we're going to have a narrative conversation about everything that happened and we're going to process it. Like they will be just like she said in the checkout line at Clover and just have a thought. They'll say the thought and then they'll be over it. Then they'll thinking about, you know, Bluey or whatever. So it's, it's normal for kids to Kind of go in and out. It's almost a way of. Of desensitizing themselves a little bit as they process. So they kind of. They approach the trauma content and they come back. They approach the trauma content, they come back. So it's this. It's this back and forth. And so I like to try to normalize that for parents, too. So it may just be kind of random spurts. Something reminds them of it. They're thinking about it. They say something you acknowledge, you support, and then if they move on, then you move on you.
[00:35:23] Speaker B: And there's this concept when, especially when we were doing forensic interviewing, we would talk about a lot of kids kind of testing to see, like, what's okay for me to say, and how are you going to react? And so you might give. They might give out like a little breadcrumb of something that has happened or something that they've seen and they're waiting to see, is mom going to absolutely lose her mind or is this going to be something that I can talk to her about? And then months might pass and then we have another little tidbit or another little, you know, part of the narrative, I would say, coming together.
And so it's really important for us to check how we respond when kids say these things that are completely earth shattering and terrifying, like not going completely insane and getting so emotional or filling with rage or whatever it might be, but just being a safe place for, like, okay, that we're doing this and we are going to handle it and it's going to be okay, move on. And then you call your therapist later and freak out. Right. When you kicks that around. And there's space for that. But we have to. To, you know, try to. Try to be secure and safe and calm when. When we need to with our kids.
[00:36:26] Speaker D: So what are some coping mechanisms that you would offer for the parents of the kids who have been sexually abused?
Because they're going through their own trauma, too.
[00:36:36] Speaker C: Yeah. A lot of times we will see some really big reactions when the parent has been a victim as well. And so that can be a really big trigger. So obviously, if you've had this, maybe you've dealt with it, maybe you haven't, maybe you feel like you've dealt with it. But then something happens to your child that's kind of rings true or reminds you of that.
So that's where doing your work is very important.
Being able to understand where your experience and your child's experience might be different.
And because. And the way that you dealt with it or the Way that your family dealt with it can be different than the way you deal with it with your child. So thinking of, I'm, you know, I can break this cycle of shame and, you know, keeping quiet, right? So being able to recognize that is the first thing, like Ashley said, taking that space, sometimes if you have some. A big emotional reaction, sometimes you just need to walk away and take a minute to yourself to regulate before you kind of go back out and address what's going on. So having some, somebody that you can talk to, to process your therapist, your, you know, a friend, being able to talk through it externally can help as well. What else do you have?
[00:37:46] Speaker B: I also encourage parents, like, hey, your kid is still a kid. Like, they still need to go be 5 or 6 or 12 or whatever. And it's been really scary and intense for months. So you need to go to the trampoline park and you need to jump with them, or you need to do something that shows your kid, like, you're not broken. I still love you. This is, we're gonna be normal, whatever that means for each family.
And kind of addressing that, like, inner child. I know it sounds super cheesy and it's very, like, hot right now to, you know, heal our inner child. But it's, it's true in some ways, take the time to be like, okay, like, we're still going to be able to have fun and enjoy life even though the big scary happened.
[00:38:24] Speaker C: Right?
[00:38:25] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and to know life's not over, right. It's not ending. And, you know, I think that's a point important. No matter what age, anything happens to you that's traumatic like that, like, you know, talk to somebody and work through it and realize that, you know, you could still have a fulfilling life. Just because one bad thing happened to you doesn't mean that your life is over.
[00:38:48] Speaker B: And kids are so resilient. Like, they're more resilient than adults. They bounce back much quicker. And one of the most important protective factors for kids is a caregiver that is supportive, period. And that does not mean that that caregiver gets it right all the time. And that's okay. I do a lot of time talking to parents of, like, you don't have to have every answer. You just have to show up in an appropriate way.
Um, the positive of that is, you know, even if a caregiver can't do it, kids learn it elsewhere. That's why teachers who are trauma informed are so important therapists. But, you know, you see a therapist once a week, but Like a coach, a church leader, a family friend. You know, you say you don't want kids, but it sounds like you have friends that do and being that person.
[00:39:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm the aunt.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
Aunts, uncles. The whole community thing is really, really great, too, because, you know, some other person in our life that teaches us what secure attachment is and teaches us how to bounce back and, you know, kids being resilient and then the supportive caregiver combo is a really, you know, good indicator of success and hope. And, you know, there's more and more research coming out on the science and power of hope, because it's very, very real that with some hope for a positive future, we can recover from trauma. And that's for all ages. But kids just have it in them. They've got that resiliency bone that goes away sometimes when we get older.
[00:40:14] Speaker A: Did you guys have anything else you wanted to touch on today?
[00:40:19] Speaker C: I don't know. I can't think of anything else. We covered a lot.
[00:40:22] Speaker A: Yeah, we did. We covered a lot. And I think we covered some very important things. I think a lot of people. It's important to realize that, you know, children need somebody to talk to, too, and need that safe space that isn't their parent, so they're not going to be judged or feel judged. And so I think it's very important. Like, I mean, we growing up, when we grew up, like, it wasn't a thing to go see a therapist as a child.
[00:40:45] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:45] Speaker B: Well, and with that, I think. And this could be a whole other podcast, but just the thought of, like, you can relearn how to attach, you can heal those broken parts.
Doesn't matter how old you are, doesn't matter how much work you have to put in. Just because you've made choices or things have happened or we've been in, whatever situation, it can be undone. We can learn new things, especially with support from other people. And that is kind of the undertone of basically our whole entire work and livelihood is that there is that that exists. And we're really passionate about helping people get there.
[00:41:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I love what you guys have created, and I think it's so important. We'll definitely love to have you guys back and, like, do some more talks and everything. But we will link your website below for anybody that has any questions, and maybe then they can reach out if they need to reach out, especially the locals. I know that that'll be a thing. But even then, like, you know, if somebody doesn't live here, but they're like, hey, do you have any support that you could give me or do you have. Do you know anyone in my state or anything like that? So. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming on, and we really appreciate it.
[00:41:55] Speaker C: Thanks for having.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: Thanks for having.
[00:41:56] Speaker A: Yes, we will. See you next time.
[00:41:58] Speaker B: See you next time. See you next time.
